The changes that are forced upon us

by Tird_Ape on 2009-04-14 15:40 EST

Wtf is up with them

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by ZW on 2009-04-14 15:42 EST

Lol...this is god's punishment for the minibeggers!

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by Tird_Ape on 2009-04-14 15:44 EST

Zw... Wotc is just getting worse first banning spoilers and now this. Wotc, you make me want to quit magic.

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by Chaosweaver on 2009-04-14 15:45 EST

well, they aren't making money :s I kinda have to agree with them. It does suck.

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by six on 2009-04-14 15:46 EST

do not want

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by xiko on 2009-04-14 15:48 EST

well there are ways of doing the stuff without being a company etc, they cant kill mirc channels run by players.

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by Chaosweaver on 2009-04-14 16:00 EST

doesn't all that has to be done is just remove the fact we have mtg tournies? or that this is an mtg tourny site? and let them think that it is?

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by TugaChampion on 2009-04-14 16:03 EST

ridiculous...

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by isperia on 2009-04-14 16:04 EST

But this site doesnt even have any artwork/card texts, only cardnames in some sections... In all other sences it is tournament engine

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by ZW on 2009-04-14 16:04 EST

In all seriousness, this is going to turn off so many potential players who don't have the time/cards to play and test in real life and only go to big tournies.

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by koolgogg on 2009-04-14 16:06 EST

Well it seems that all you have to do is remove all links to mws and apprenice. I could be wrong about this but I don't think you infringe of on their copyright if you still post a tournament just don't write mws on it.

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by Socks3 on 2009-04-14 16:06 EST

I have to agree with WotC on this one. It is unfortunate, however.

I wonder if the MTG-Temple is getting the same treatment...

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by Qamiqaze on 2009-04-14 16:22 EST

wotc did this to a past league... the league ceased for a couple weeks and then simply resumed. hopefully m-l recovers from this soon because i don't play irl. wotc loves to send cease and desist letters, but they carry very little legal weight.

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by Manipulation on 2009-04-14 16:24 EST

What sort of timetable are we looking at for the return of tournaments? Because IMO, that's all m-l is good for, single matches don't mean much of anything.

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by DragonKid on 2009-04-14 16:28 EST

A very good card game player from my neck of the woods doesnt play magic, he always said he used to for a long time but it "lost its souls" so he stopped.

I could deal with the themes and mechanisms becoming less origanal, I could deal with them destroying the rummor mill but this is them just trying to such every penny out of the players.

Sigh

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by Bushviper on 2009-04-14 16:37 EST

This is what you do, replace every instance of "Magic" with "Pink Pony" We shall become www.pinkpony-league.com, we will link to Pink Pony Workstation. We sall offer free online Pink Pony play. Then we can reomve all Magic pics from the site and replace them with pics of Pink Ponies. Seems simple to me.

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by Tird_Ape on 2009-04-14 16:39 EST

I second that!

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by brazil on 2009-04-14 16:48 EST

Go open source, they cannot combat the whole internet.

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by Wiley on 2009-04-14 16:59 EST

If this is a joke (and it would be a damn good one) then disregard everything I'm about to say.

I think that this is blatantly ridiculous and the fact that already at least two people have said they agree with the logic presented by WotC is appalling. Magic-league is really no different from people playing with eachother using proxies - except that it's faster, easier, and more fun. I assume WotC wouldn't be in favor of banning ordinary proxies.

So then what WotC objects to is not the "copyright infringement" (I think their reasoning is dubious at best that it qualifies as a copyright infringement since Magic-league is not claiming that the cards are their creation (WotC is always either explicitly or implicitly credited with the card ideas), nor are they making any profit from this, but I digress) or the perfectly ordinary and legal activity of playing with proxies, but Magic-league's facilitation of our ability to play without owning the cards. What I would argue is that if the activity in question is legal, then facilitating that activity should also be legal.

Furthermore, some of the accusations by Wizards in that e-mail are patently childish: "Your use of the “Magic-League” name and “magic-league.com” domain name further evidences your bad faith intent to capitalize on the good will associated with Wizards’ MAGIC: THE GATHERING® trademark, and pass your site off as authorized or associated with Wizards’ MAGIC: THE GATHERING® game". Yeah, Magic-league is trying to perpetuate some myth that it's authorized by Wizards. Give me a break.

Basically I think there are two questions that need to be addressed: a) Does Magic-league harm Wizards in any way and b) If not, do they have the right to restrict the use of their product and the distribution of their ideas regardless?

In response to a), I think it's very very clear that this site does not harm Wizards significantly, and if anything it helps them. Firstly, the only way Wizard's makes money is from Tournaments, and people buying Precons and Packs and other products. Wizards to my knowledge doesn't sell singles. So the question is, how does Magic-league's existence deter people from buying packs, or going to DCI sanctioned tournaments? Intuitively I don't see how it could (and even if it did, Magic-league has a membership of about 500 regular members, maybe, and I don't think they could put a dent in Wizards' profits).

I suppose a case can be made that it makes people less likely to use MTGO, but even then, I think people would have no incentive to play MTGO at all if they couldn't even test their cards. Remember, Magic-league is not a replacement for real life magic - it's a way to test for it.

So the second question is, does Wizards have the legal right to stop Magic-league from hosting free, essentially 100% proxy tournaments, even if there is no harm to them? I've already shown how the claim that there's a copyright infringement holds very little weight. Magic-league is not claiming to be the creative inspiration behind the cards - in fact at the bottom of this very page it says "Magic the Gathering is TM and copyright Wizards of the Coast, Inc, a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc. All rights reserved". Moreover, the philosophical basis for copyright law is that it exists to encourage the development of the arts [and sciences, but not in this case obviously]. So even if there is a copyright infringement going on here, all you would really have to show is that Wizards is better off in a world where Magic-league exists (which could be very reasonably argued).

Copyright law doesn't mean "you have 100% complete authority over everything that is done with your product, ever". The supreme court of Canada recognizes that file sharing is a justified limitation on copyright law (and this, really, is just a less extreme version of file sharing). Lots of jurisdictions have limitations like "fair use", which also certainly applies - most people use Magic-league to test for real life tournaments, so the intention is usually that they will use the league's service to further their abilities at DCI-sanctioned events or just further the progress of Magic in general (this can be done through people testing different decks and eventually finding the deck that breaks a particular format, which is more easily done on a site where you can play ridiculous amounts of free magic).

At the end of the day what we have from Wizards is a very dubious legal justification for dismantling an entire website, with no reasonable alternative even suggested by them. Magic-league helps Wizards if anything and they should leave Magic-league alone.

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by Wiley on 2009-04-14 17:04 EST

...that is bound to get some "TLDR" responses.

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by Delicious on 2009-04-14 17:20 EST

e-mails means nothing. make them go to court and get a legal cease and desist order. If it is an American court, this will be thrown out

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by Jotram on 2009-04-14 17:34 EST

I can't afford to play paper magic right now. If I could, I would. If m-l suddenly goes down, I'm not going to magically start buying cards.

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by Holzi on 2009-04-14 17:34 EST

fuck the wizards... there are a few changes going on with magic that i dont like....


ml is just a few friends how meet together to play some matches of mtg....

they cannot forbid that xD

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by Azania on 2009-04-14 18:29 EST

just for the record, this is NOT a joke, we hold back with announcing this to confirm it was real.

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by Lynolf on 2009-04-14 19:02 EST

Ok, this is pretty simple:

Wizards isn't making money. As we all know (I suppose), the world is in a financiary crisis, and Wizards is no exception. I mean, just look at the new exchanges they have been mading. A gold set? Mythic rares? Planeswalkers? Lots of hybrid and gold cards? Lots of new players love that. Even I love multicolored cards, and I'm not new at magic.
I'm sure they have knowledge of this site a long time ago, but they only decided to release this bomb now because of that. They believe that since this site makes players play magic for free, they won't have a tendency to go buy boosters irl and, therefore, not contribute to the payout of their employees. And so they decided to shut this down.
Now as it was refered back there, adding the fact that they are ruining set spoilers, this comes to proof that Wizards are, indeed, a bunch of mother*****. This won't help them make money. On the contrary. People who don't play irl won't still play irl, and people who use this site to play for fun or to test decks can do exactly the same using MWS. Their problem is that they just won't be able to do it with "visible" people.

And that's what I think about this. If this place really shuts down, then all I have to say is that I've spent very cool and fun times here and was able to talk and know people from other countries (and from mine, as well) and that I'm happy for having found this place and thank everyone who founded this site and the possibility to play here. :)

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by xerox on 2009-04-14 19:18 EST

maybe bertelsmann will buy you guys out? you never know...

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by Holzi on 2009-04-14 19:32 EST

what happened to the spoilers?

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by Rotstejn on 2009-04-14 19:47 EST

I like the pink pony idea ...

^^

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by el_cuervito on 2009-04-14 19:49 EST

gg m-l

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by ZW on 2009-04-14 19:59 EST

EL_CUERVITO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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by kaiijy on 2009-04-14 20:04 EST

The main use for appr and mws programs are for players whom actually buy cards, but they won't spend money in something they don't know how will work. So they test with "imaginary cards".

you can use magic-league name, the trade mark is for "Magic: The Gathering", they couldn't register "Magic", just use the word "Magic" and they can't blame you for that.

and if you remove the masterbases from the apprentice/mws you don't have any text, artwork, anything, but people would be able to download a PROGRAM, the link for the masterbases can be added in rapidshare or any other website like that one.

And no one can stop mIRC, as someone said :P

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by SteveMan on 2009-04-14 20:13 EST

I'm 100% sure that Clariax will find a rules mistake

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by NahHolmes on 2009-04-14 20:20 EST

As much as I hate to say it I agree with WOTC on this one. They have payrolls full of people who design, test, and print Magic cards and when someone plays on M-L instead of Magic Online Wizards doesn't make money. That said there are work-arounds to this but I won't go into that since I'm sure WOTC is watching this thread. Oh well, going to miss M-L. :(

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by Daffie999 on 2009-04-14 20:40 EST

If it weren't for a free way to play MTG I would have never "come back" to magic. WOTC has made money off of me only because Magic-League got me interested again

I would be interested to find out if they are making more or less money because of a site like this.

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by Trivial on 2009-04-14 20:48 EST

From my knowledge of business law (one graduate class, but it's better than nothing), there are a few things to consider:

(1) Don't respond without legal counsel. I suggest you try to contact Elliot Fertik or Ben Goodman, two MTG players who are lawyers.
(2) If you are located outside the US, WOTC will have serious trouble with jurisdiction, and you probably need to do nothing.
(3) Change your name from magic-league. A claim can reasonably be made that this is a potential trademark violation.
(4) Don't use WOTC images in the banners.

Jeff Stewart

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by Trivial on 2009-04-14 20:54 EST

And the fact that they sent you email means they don't know your address. If possible, don't let them know how to contact you.

Jeff

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by SugarShark on 2009-04-14 21:12 EST

don't worry we're printing amazing playables
at mythic rarity. we're the bad guys

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by Azania on 2009-04-14 21:58 EST

@SugarShark:

"Your site also makes available free MAGIC: THE GATHERING® cards."

That is one of the lines which kinda left us puzzled as well.

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by Tird_Ape on 2009-04-14 22:35 EST

I'd like of this free card action.

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by Wiley on 2009-04-14 22:37 EST

"by NahHolmes on 2009-04-14 20:20 EDT

As much as I hate to say it I agree with WOTC on this one. They have payrolls full of people who design, test, and print Magic cards and when someone plays on M-L instead of Magic Online Wizards doesn't make money. That said there are work-arounds to this but I won't go into that since I'm sure WOTC is watching this thread. Oh well, going to miss M-L. :("

Very silly comment. Please read the rebuttals to this. Wizards isn't losing any money (and if you think they are, do you REALLY think that the 500 or so regular members of this site are going to drag them down significantly?)

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by Beto_cL on 2009-04-14 22:42 EST

aguante magic league.

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by clayparson on 2009-04-14 23:08 EST

To be honest, I'm shocked by this.
Looks like this is the end of my magic-playing days.

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by ZW on 2009-04-14 23:17 EST

Honestly, why cannot we just shut Wizards of the Coast down? Why do they deserve an magic more than we? I, for us, Like to Play here,it's funtime!

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by Boogaloo on 2009-04-14 23:24 EST

I kinda feel like I'm in Zion with the machine army about to break through. The last trace of free magic is about to be swallowed up by the machines :(

Where's Neo??

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by Husapi on 2009-04-14 23:33 EST

t2 mini

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by caesarthehun on 2009-04-14 23:45 EST

I know it is a rule of the internet to not talk about.....this one place i went to this one time.....but could anyone could send some /b/ tards to roll the magic site? I mean this is the internet for goodness sakes! just bomb their site!

For real though: I agree with Trivial, this is fake and there is no possible way they can press legal chrages through the internet.

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by unwadetrout on 2009-04-15 00:27 EST

Okay. I like how no adult can handle the copyright problems made by use of the internet. I think there are some similarities between this and the difference between bittorrenting stuff and burning music etc. Its just like borrowing it from a friend.

Here's an anecdote that might spark interest. It is basically what Wizards is trying to do. Which is funny because they have no control over the internet. They are just trying to make money which is okay but they are trying to put pressure in areas they can't really.

A good friend of mine, Mushmellow, and I used to play magic by writing the names of the cards on slips of paper and and shuffling them into decks. We started to do this at my elementary school because we did not have money for cards b/c our allowance was only 25 cents a week. Basically, we played eachother and that was okay. Then we started a club at our school and we advertised it as "free magic" We got other kids to learn the cards and write them on slips of paper and shuffle them together. We set up a rating system similar to the DCI and we had challenge matches at lunchtime with judges who were the kids who knew how to play better. Then we had some 4th grade mini beggers who wanted tourneys with bigger K values so they could beat scrubs who did not netdeck (like my friend Mushmellow who liked to play decks such as Turbofog, Clone and Mirror Entity Combo and Pyrric Revival, Wbxithid.dec and other crap creations which get completely pwned by 5cc and fay) Okay enough of that. So basically once we started running tourneys and Godmellow (one of the better players known for his extreme topdecking skills starting winning with a Marlen of the Mornsong and Mindlock Orb combo due to his extreme luck; also cuz he was god (with no anti-govt sentiments btw flippi for banning him)) starting pwning noobs and his rating skyrocketed. We were all having a good time until....

Wizards sent us an email. BUH ba bumM!!!!!!

They said our "free magic" was illegal and that they were going to close our club. We were just kids and like wtf and we went Lord of the Flies on there ass and pwned them good and we killed the fat one with glasses who claimed he was not going to make any money if we kept up our paper shennagigans.

So basically, the kids in my elementary school prevailed and the mellows have once again succeded.

Okay. Moral of the legend is (actually an excerpt from The Great Bible of Mellow ISBN: 432789347) is wizards can't do shit. Just how it is impossible to ban MellowThought(C) it is impossible to stop the use of Magic-League.


I would like to announce. I am Mushmellow. I am for victory. Long live magic-league.com. The capitalistic pig (no Lord of the Flies pun intended :) ) will not prevail. Let the COLD WAR of MAGIC Begin.

We are the peasants wanadering the planes seeking a strong leader. VOTE MUSHMELLOW for 5th grade class president.

DISCLAIMER: No anti-government or anti-anyone sentiments in this post. Please do not remove for the good of magic-league. We must win this fight.

All for one and one for all.

Mellows assemble and charge. We are entering the red zone.

Damage on the stack.

Wizards epic fail. Magic-leage.com lives.

QED

</rant>

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by Dapug on 2009-04-15 00:47 EST

I hope we can come up with a viable solution to keep ml alive. I don't really matter to WOTC either way because if I can't play Magic for free, I'll just find something else. While I would be inclinded do nothing in the face of this email, I'm obviously not the one whose ass is on the line if they do continue with litigation.

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by ChiDoRiE on 2009-04-15 01:44 EST

This letter does not purport to be a complete statement of the facts or the law

lol

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by SteveMan on 2009-04-15 02:02 EST

This would have never happened if Dapug didn't hack so much.

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by Finntroll on 2009-04-15 02:08 EST

GG M-L, GOGO Pink-Pony!

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by Morpheus2222 on 2009-04-15 02:11 EST

very vague letter there is really nothing they can do and in-fact this site allows for a creation of a different metagame.

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by cloysterd on 2009-04-15 02:30 EST

I'm not sure what WotC thinks they're going to gain from this. ML isn't hurting their bottom line, and now they've pissed off a few hundred of their customers. Good work guys.

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by Nere on 2009-04-15 05:59 EST

This mail sounds like a lot of BS like:
"Your unauthorized use of the “magic-league” name" since the name "magic-league" is not their copyright who should have authorized it?
"Your unauthorized copying and distribution of the MAGIC: THE GATHERING® trading cards text and artwork" again nothing to do with magic-league, nowhere on the site you see pictures or text.
"association with your commercial activities" i didnt know magic-league has any commercial activity.

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by xJudicatorx on 2009-04-15 07:57 EST

If you are trying to make a better April Fool's Joke since the other 2 were awful, you've done an awesome job! This was quite believeable until I slept on it.

Then I got to thinking about what WotC could actually DO about magic-league and.....well they have no reason to want to do anything, and even if they wanted to, there's not really any grounds. The e-mail from the original post was full of legal mumbo-jumbo that sounded like a very convincing bluff mixed in with a few out-right lies.

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by mufl0n on 2009-04-15 08:14 EST

truly lulzworthy

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by RavensEffect on 2009-04-15 08:53 EST

This is clearly not an April Fool's joke, and for anyone who thinks that it might be, look at the date you moron. Wizards of the Coast obviously think by "bullying" Magic-League and saying a bunch of legal things that Magic-League will give in, and probably change their name, or delete their account. I think at worse all this site has to do would be change your name, even though I'm pretty sure that Wizards do not have the word "Magic" copyrighted. I agree that some of the things they said might be true, which is why this needs to be brought to REAL legal action. You guys can't just sit around and let them tell you what you need to do, find out in some kind of court, or like the one guy said, from a lawyer that plays Magic. Find out the truth, because it'd be a shame if this all ended like this. I love Magic and I love WOTC, but I certainly will lose a lot of respect for them after this, and I'm definitely not going to be going to Magic Online or buying paper cards just because they're trying to shut down M-L and get rid of free magic.

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by Rotstejn on 2009-04-15 09:32 EST

relax ... take it easy ... cause there is nothing that they can do ;)

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by Kaesh on 2009-04-15 09:36 EST

This is all based on a false premise that m-l is a commercial activity.
Additionally, the chance that they are going to hire lawyers to argue american copyright law in front of a dutch court is equal to zero, since they simply can't afford to throw that much money away.

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by tg on 2009-04-15 09:43 EST

EPIC FAIL!

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by Trotsky1 on 2009-04-15 10:04 EST

Never underestimate the power of evil corperations.

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by Dakkon555 on 2009-04-15 10:29 EST

1. Wizards has Magic: The Gathering copyrighted, not the word "Magic" ;)
2. We link to MWS, this can be easily argued just as Download.com argued with Limewire (A more serious case)

and if M-L is an idiot and shuts down.

GG
<3 CPal
<3 Pollo
<3 Neckfire
<3 Meo
<3 Six
<3 Terminus-Est
<3 LordHawk
<3 Slowpoke

thx for being my friends :)

Goodbye World. I'm puling the trigger in 19 seconds.

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by darksigma on 2009-04-15 10:35 EST

Well even if m-l shuts down, we could reconvert to the old system that ran the minis through irc without a website. Its worse and wont be as many tourneys, but at least we could have some tourneys.
Anyway solidirc will still be up so we can use it to talk, play, draft, etc.

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by Balthazar88 on 2009-04-15 10:39 EST

I was stunned when I read this post. Seems so surreal. But as many before me has pointed out most of what they said in the email has verly loose reference to how it really is. They might own MAGIC: THE GATHERING but I seriously doubt that they own the word MAGIC.

So, except for the banner I don't really see what they can complain/do against the league it self.

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by Rorix on 2009-04-15 10:42 EST

Do you really expect them to move a lawsuit against a non-profit website based in the Netherlands? Even the laws they mention not necessarily are applicable in Europe. ("Federal" laws, who cares? Magic-League is not even American :P)

About the "free cards", they're probably taking about Master prizes. Even though it makes no sense, since it's actually someone buying THEIR product from stores to give out as prizes, even if their point is 100% right, they're STILL going to have a big trouble with the jurisdiction.

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by ElectricS on 2009-04-15 10:52 EST

I'm fairly certain that M-L has no legal ground to stand on.

Is it a good idea for Wizards to shut this site down? That's very debatable, but it is definitely within their rights and TBH I'm surprised it took them this long.

The real shame here is that Magic Online is such a ramshackle program that it can't really offer a replacement.

The metagame data from this site has significantly altered major tournaments in the past and opens the door to players in other countries, so it's definitely a shame to see it go, but I don't really think there is any solution to this.

bad beats guys.

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by TheBends on 2009-04-15 11:25 EST

Whats is WoTc? Never heard of these guys.

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by MikeL123 on 2009-04-15 11:56 EST

Fair use: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

Stop giving away $60 or $30 in product for some tourneys. Stop using their images in your banner. If you somehow turn a profit from this site and are willing to do without it... then stop using that.

And you should be all set.

You don't profit from my use of your goods/services. I'm quite seriously using this site for educational purposes - I like to problem solve, and there's good problem-solving opportunities in this game.

Thanks for all of your work on this site thus far, and any in the future. I really appreciate it.

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by Brodie on 2009-04-15 12:15 EST

I had a really intelligent post about how WotC has moronic policy, an idolization of the incredibly fucked RIAA and generally a misguided view that any new policy is good policy just because they're in the recession with the rest of us.

However, when I posted it M-L did that bullshit where it says I'm not logged in. So just out of spite I'm going to side with Wizards because M-L's code sucks.

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by FearFreak on 2009-04-15 12:42 EST

Isnt there a way to just do them as casual non rated tournaments somehow, like use real tournament organizers like me, its real easy to become one, to run tournaments? Seems like there has to be an official way to unofficially keep this up.

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by Shyft- on 2009-04-15 13:11 EST

It seems to me to be a pretty big mistake acknowledging the email or posting it on the site. That takes away all possibility of plausible deniability of receipt of the email. Anyway, an email is not "hardball" nor is it an acceptable or court-approved way of sending legal correspondence. What an unfortunate choice by Wizards, only alienating a portion of its playing community. If we'd ignored the email and continued operation they wouldn't actually have had any reasonable recourse without wasting a lot of resources.

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by deathron on 2009-04-15 13:13 EST

you can try to offer them the following: Link this to both MTGO and official website, as well as providing links to all the major tournaments. To the deck lists add an option to export them in MTGO format. Maybe try to get an agreement with scg where deck list would provide a link to buy them. Try to emphasize the fact that this is for proxy testing for people who do not have access to a good testing group. Basically try to make this service complimentary to MTGO, and if you help their authorized providers sell real cards, I hope wizards will then leave us alone (while they don't sell singles, singles come from packs so in the end wizards still profit).

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by Conkisstador on 2009-04-15 13:41 EST

They do not realize that a site like this generates income for them. Keeping a demand for M:TG creates revenue for stores and players continue to want to paly in real life.

If it is inappropriate here please move it (but i doubt it is.)

I move to use this venue as the beginnings to a petition concerning Magic-League.com's right to continue using its current format as it does not in any way betray me and my knowledge that this site is separate from Magic Online. I am completely aware of the site's postulations and can keep them differentiated from genuine Magic The Gathering and Wizards products. Furthermore, I see any Wizards of the Coast attempt to impede my ability to play M:TG as a blatant attempt at shunning me away from the game.

Roberto Castro - Conkisstador

(and on a side note: this site was around BEFORE Magic Online- doesn't that negate half of the accusations in that suit? That leaves images and trademarks of Wizards and M:tG, where I think they have no case as they would have to shut down every Proxy tournament Type1 event under the same bi-laws. Hosting a tournament of Magic cards with Magic-based prizes using PROXIES of Magic cards... how is that any different? This is utterly ludicrous. This is them being pushy because they have more money for lawyers =df: Bully. Bullies only respond to strength and I think you should be prepared to be much stronger!)

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by RiQuSP on 2009-04-15 15:08 EST

So I'm away a few days and this is what happens!

Ontopic: Wizards makes me cry :( What am I supposed to do with my life now? HUH?!

BTW Koen, you still owe me 40$ :B

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by TylerTMK on 2009-04-15 15:40 EST

I started playing again ~3-4 years ago only because I could play for free on m-l. Since I began playing on m-l I played in 2 states, 2 regionals, 2 GP, 9 PTQs, and 1 PT. Thats roughly $400 in entry fees I would not have otherwise payed if I had not played on m-l, not to mention the cost of cards, sleeves, etc...Happy to say I will no longer give wizards my money

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by dojioutlaw on 2009-04-15 15:52 EST

That is the problem:

MONEY MONEY MONEY

Wizards cut crisis (Ur crisis) with MOL, basic collections, rotate collects, more and more boosters IN YOUR LANGUAGUE (english boosters only for USA), spanish people only can buy boosters in Spain (and in spanish)... :(

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by YANP on 2009-04-15 15:58 EST

Magic-League is being shut down! AWESOME! Now we just need a few other horrible sites to be shut down! This GREAT news makes me want to play MTG again!

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by YANP on 2009-04-15 16:00 EST

@TylerTMK: WotC doesn't care about your $400. They easily use more than that alone in office supplies in one day and can live without you as a customer because they have a million more.

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by Benny-Lava on 2009-04-15 16:12 EST

Hmmmm
I still don't get why you should stop trials and minis.

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by crovex on 2009-04-15 16:28 EST

frankly i'm trying hard to get back into magic in time for regionals, but i don't have money to buy real cards and digital cards just to prepare for one event. On top of that I am the only player worth a damn around here and then they go and do this. WotC (Hasbro is prolly the bigger issue) is trying hard to kill magic off in the past few years. Keep going Wizards your on the right path if you want to kill the thing that put you on the map.

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by boogiexx on 2009-04-15 16:50 EST

rename the site, move it to russia and send them email with bug F U !

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by NahHolmes on 2009-04-15 17:41 EST

This stuff is all well and good but you have to put yourself in WOTC shoes. They have a full roster of employees who's only job is to generate MTG cards and they are paid 99% by the money brought in from boosters and Magic Online. Times are tough and I mean if you were a Magic Online player and were looking to save some money it's easier to switch from magic online to M-L and save hundreds of dollars over a couple months then to shop at the price club and bring a sandwich to work every day so you can afford magic cards. I mean if 20 people here say fuck it and change to MTG Online and average $50 a month that's $1000 in WOTC pockets. You guys are definitely only seeing one side of this. WOTC knows they can't stop all free magic but this website is the biggest target and has inspired many other sites. I mean I just don't see how anyone can seriously say WOTC is an evil corporation for this when it seems like a sensible thing to do to protect a copyright. This is about the only time I have agreed with WOTC by the way. I think spoilers should be dealt with internally to WOTC and they handled that poorly and I think back in the day they made many stupid copyright claims that hurt their image (trying to copyright the tapping mechanic comes to mind). WOTC stays in business by selling cards though and M-L is a free substitute for Magic Online and surpasses it in many many ways that unfortunately WOTC can do little about while actually retaining an incentive to buy T2 boosters.

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by NahHolmes on 2009-04-15 17:52 EST

BTW just because I agree that WOTC is right doesn't mean I like the outcome. I have a couple ideas for a workaround to the legal issues but none of them could save M-L in it's current form.

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by Meatwarz on 2009-04-15 17:52 EST

Ingore WoTC and they have no way force you to do what they want. And actually there is nothing against the law in ML, but ofc WotC doesn't like the site.

So nico, if you like ML and all the players closing it will be just an awfull decision. I mean, this is just a letter, no law basis etc.

Don't be a traitor.

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by doherty2 on 2009-04-15 17:56 EST

Ignore all the idiots in this thread and simply speak with a lawyer. I would imagine that in the Netherlands there is at least one legal clinic that could give you some advice.

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by Wiley on 2009-04-15 18:08 EST

"I mean if 20 people here say fuck it and change to MTG Online and average $50 a month that's $1000 in WOTC pockets."

Er yeah, and once distributed among all of their employees that makes for maybe 5 cents. Incredibly ridiculous comment.

I agree, just get a lawyer.

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by CalebD on 2009-04-15 18:18 EST

What is everyone talking about?

When do the pink pony tournaments start up again?

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by Tird_Ape on 2009-04-15 19:06 EST

I think theres a pink pony trial tommorrow.

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by TylerTMK on 2009-04-15 19:14 EST

@YANP, the point isn't that I gave a wizards a substantial amount of money, the point is m-l has likely generated more irl tournament interest than it has reduced.

I don't know much about copyright laws but something tells me theyre just trying to "scare" m-l into shutting down :/

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by ChiDoRiE on 2009-04-15 22:28 EST

thats exactly what they are doing..dont shut down ml :(

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by alsorhombus on 2009-04-15 23:23 EST

§ 501. Infringement of copyright

(a) Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122 or of the author as provided in section 106A (a), or who imports copies or phonorecords into the United States in violation of section 602, is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, as the case may be. For purposes of this chapter (other than section 506), any reference to copyright shall be deemed to include the rights conferred by section 106A (a). As used in this subsection, the term “anyone” includes any State, any instrumentality of a State, and any officer or employee of a State or instrumentality of a State acting in his or her official capacity. Any State, and any such instrumentality, officer, or employee, shall be subject to the provisions of this title in the same manner and to the same extent as any nongovernmental entity.

§ 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works
Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;
(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

m-l will not have to shut down, obviously. this is a scare tactic of wotc.

"...the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright."

Also, wotc cannot copyright the term "magic" because its too broad. There is an article on wizards.com by mark rosewater I think, talks about how they got ":The Gathering."

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by cram320 on 2009-04-15 23:27 EST

QUICK! to keep unharmed push A!

do a barrel roll!

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by crovex on 2009-04-16 00:24 EST

here's a question how many hardcore tourney players actually buy boosters just to buy boosters. Only time i get boosters is to draft, which is something that works better on modo or irl than it does on m-l. And i find it hard to believe that m-l replaces anyone's real life events.

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by Wiley on 2009-04-16 00:39 EST

"by cram320 on 2009-04-15 23:27 EDT

QUICK! to keep unharmed push A!

do a barrel roll!"

Use the boost to get through!

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by alsorhombus on 2009-04-16 02:27 EST

That article I was talking about...

http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/26

To quote Mark Rosewater:

Magic was almost not called Magic. In fact, when the first solicitation for the game was sent out the game was called Mana Clash. The reason for this is as follows. Richard (Garfield, of course) called the game Magic when he originally designed it. All through the original playtests the game was called Magic. Then when they went to officially name it, they got a lawyer involved who informed them that Magic was too broad of a word to ever be able to copyright. So they started looking for alternatives. Mana Clash was the name they liked best from that search and thus they used it on the solicitation. But everyone playing the game (Richard, the playtesters and the people at Wizards) still called the game Magic. The name just seemed too perfect. They went back to the lawyer and asked what they could do to call it Magic. The lawyer told them they needed to add something else unique and "ownable" onto it that allowing them to copyright the name as a whole. That is how "The Gathering" was added.

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by undertow on 2009-04-16 07:58 EST

next thing you know they destroy the secondary market by ceasing to print any more

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by Araeliz on 2009-04-16 08:27 EST

YOU ALL HAVE BEEN TROLLED !
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Gogogogogogo late-April-fools e-mail ;-D!

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by Farseer on 2009-04-16 09:00 EST

Is ML.com hosted in the US?

If not, have them cite *applicable law* in their legal correspondence.

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by Azania on 2009-04-16 10:29 EST

We are still looking into ways to continue, we have no intention to be shutdown. News should come in a few days with some updates. So bear with us for a while.

Whether it is a scare mail or not we rather not take the risk of getting sued. We simply do not have the money for that.

I will say this for the last for the non believers. THIS IS NOT A JOKE! (we would not do this even for april fools, that is how bad of a joke we find this to be.)

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by warwizard87 on 2009-04-16 10:31 EST

call it proxy-league and say it is a "100 percent free gaming site, were you can prepare for in real life events by using proxys"
that should pretty much shut them up XD

hell lets really fuck with them and start doing vs and world of war craft, and shit lets relaly screw them up and do pokemon and yu gi oh, or even netrunner, ect etc could be fun XD

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by Revik on 2009-04-16 10:44 EST

Okay, I know I am not around as often as I'd like to be, and I know that I can be very annoying and trollish sometimes. But something needs to be done. This is just another example of a giant bullying people smaller than them because they feel insecure.

"by Lynolf on 2009-04-14 19:02 EDT

Ok, this is pretty simple:

Wizards isn't making money. As we all know (I suppose), the world is in a financiary crisis, and Wizards is no exception. I mean, just look at the new exchanges they have been mading. A gold set? Mythic rares? Planeswalkers? Lots of hybrid and gold cards? Lots of new players love that. Even I love multicolored cards, and I'm not new at magic.
I'm sure they have knowledge of this site a long time ago, but they only decided to release this bomb now because of that. They believe that since this site makes players play magic for free, they won't have a tendency to go buy boosters irl and, therefore, not contribute to the payout of their employees. And so they decided to shut this down.
Now as it was refered back there, adding the fact that they are ruining set spoilers, this comes to proof that Wizards are, indeed, a bunch of mother*****. This won't help them make money. On the contrary. People who don't play irl won't still play irl, and people who use this site to play for fun or to test decks can do exactly the same using MWS. Their problem is that they just won't be able to do it with "visible" people."

Some small changes may need to be made, but in the end I feel as if Magic-League will still be around and will continue to provide online magic to those that can't afford to play magic IRL or on MTGO, those who like to test with a diverse group of people, those that enjoy fun formats that you cannot play IRL unless you get lucky and find a store that has them, or those that like trying new things often and like to test different decks without shelling out the money for them.

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by Tird_Ape on 2009-04-16 14:58 EST

Ban wizards for trolling.

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by Dagoop on 2009-04-16 15:39 EST

This won't make me buy cards.

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by Over on 2009-04-16 15:42 EST

The quality's lack of MOL is one of the reasons for this kind of action. But, in times of global internet, they can't do anything against optional ways of play Magic.

Is not a problem take off the tournaments from this site, cuz the players continue in Mirc (there they can't change anything) and the site’s downloads can be posted in torrent sites.
So, this site can be an information site (forums are untouchable) and the entire engine be hidden in other sites.

It's a dumb action from WOT, cuz they are changing the tournament's they can see into an invisible engine, without their control.

Other point, if they think MWS and App are bad for their business, I think they will be worried when they see MOL in pirate server versions running in hidden tournaments. If this needs to be a hidden structure, then the players can use the best programs.

If this is the end of Magic League, maybe is the start of a new era for Free Magic Online.

Good Luck WOT.

Noting is going to stop the players.

Note: Please, fire your marketing department, cuz change a great divulgation resource in a plague problem is an extremely incompetent action.

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by Vedrfolner on 2009-04-16 17:55 EST

no problem.

WotC will have serious and extremely costly problems trying to prove that the activity of the site runners (the M-L people) are indeed breaking copyrights.

1. M-L doesn't own MWS or Apprentice copyrights.

2. The images used in these programs or on this site aren't cards. Any copyright infringment on Magic TG cards would have to be of a kind that would confuse the owner of the copy to the origin of the card's producer. That isn't possible since images of a card and a card are two very different things.

3. Since M-L existed before Magic Online, nothing happening here would be a copyright infringement of MOL either. Rather the opposite.

4. They will have great difficulty to show in front of a court of law that M-L as a legal entity profits in any way from a widespread assumption among its users that it is indeed owned and run by WotC.

If this site is closed, another will take its place. What WotC is doing is sheer stupidity. Just like the music and movie industry profits immensely from the extreme consumption of their merchandise being common among torrent users - because it is free and has the best distribution the world has ever seen (the online bittorrent product is way better than the one they sell in stores) - MTG and WotC also profits from the heightened use of their products. No free online magic = less consumption of their products.

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by KaleGozer on 2009-04-16 18:32 EST

Reading this made me sad, hopefully you guys will find a way to keep this great site going on.

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by Revik on 2009-04-16 18:38 EST

[13:08] <gluedman> you get a free lawyer at lawyer-league.com
[13:08] <gluedman> the same law service, but without paying
[13:09] <Revik> You get free proxy lawyers at lawyer-league.com
[13:09] <Revik> It's different
[13:09] <WiCkEdWiZaRd> Revik
[13:09] <WiCkEdWiZaRd> lawyler-league
[13:09] <WiCkEdWiZaRd> was closed down
[13:09] <gluedman> by lawyers of the coast? NOOOOO
[13:09] <WiCkEdWiZaRd> since it was to close to Lawyers:the gathering

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by Trivial on 2009-04-16 21:39 EST

Forgive me, but it's clear that many of you are smart and know how to debate, but you don't know intellectual property law.

You don't have to make money to violate trademark or copyright.

Furthermore, I see people confusing these two things in posts. It's reasonably simple:
(1) If you create something, you own it in the US. There is no need to announce you have a copyright; you just have it. What this means is that other people are not allowed to copy it or sell it. Phrases are generally not copyrighted.
(1b) All the artwork in MTG cards is copyrighted; you and I do not have the right to use the images; satire is an exception.
(2) Phrases and names may be trademarked. WOTC did this with Magic: The Gathering. These trademarks must be applied for and protected, or WOTC runs the legal risk of losing the tm. The different set names are trademarked as are some characters. If someone is making a name that could be confused by a reasonable person for the trademarked product, this may be a trademark violation.
(3) There are also patent; WOTC used to have a patent (and one I thought was written quite well), but it has expired.

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by MistyFatDog on 2009-04-16 22:36 EST

everyone here is extremely retarded

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by SteveMan on 2009-04-17 01:34 EST

In preparation of the new league, I need people to test the following deck(s) with me

- Reaper King Pink Pony Survival

- Elder Pink Pony Highlander

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by Vedrfolner on 2009-04-17 05:53 EST

The point is that they will have real trouble showing that the representations of the cards in MWS or Apprentice are indeed copies.

It is very different from music and movies or other artwork. Music being represented in the form of an audio file is used as a sound representation of sound, and is therefore a copy. Same with a movie. A painting being represented as a picture file printout and hung on a wall for visual purposes is a copy. If it is used in an article describing that very picture, it is not a copy.

MWS' representation of WotC's intellectual property, with or without a separately downloaded picture of the card, is not in the original form (cardboard pieces with print), and thus can't be confused with real cards.

If M-L downloaded card images, printed them and sold them in packs or separately, they would have a case. As it is now, neither M-L or anyone else using or allowing the use of MWS or Apprentice are actually copying anything.

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by ZeMuppet on 2009-04-17 10:18 EST

Ya know, this is about the legality of proxies and setting values for things that don't actually exist.

You see, trading cards have limited print runs which give them value. The fact that something says "FIRST EDITION CHARIZARD" or "BLACK LOTUS" doesn't make it valueable, it's age and rarity does.

So yeah, I guess proxies must be illegal.

That's what I'm getting from Wizards anyway,

So now I'm leaving Magic until a time when the game doesn't suck anymore.

I mean, who wants to plop down 40-100 dollars for a deck that's gonna scoop to Faeries..FAERIES?!?!?!?!

If I'm gonna invest money in a hobby/game, I'm gonna go with Warhammer 40k.

Imperial Guard, here I come!

Hmmm, or maybe Necrons... any suggestions?

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by DRjester on 2009-04-17 11:11 EST

I remember when similar legal action was taken against rancored_elf over on mtgsalvation.com for his spoilers, and there were a few things that people on the site did to try to help. First, if this were to actually come to REAL legal action, rather than just an email threat, then I bet that there are a number of magic-league players and others in the on-line magic community that would be willing to donate to some sort of legal fund... it prolly wouldn't amount to much, but it would be better than nothing. Alternatively, if there were any lawyers that would be willing to volunteer to do pro-bono work in this case, I bet it wouldn't be turned down.

Secondly, I think that it probably wouldn't hurt to organize some sort of email campaign letting WOTC know that the majority of us think that this is a poor choice on their part.

GL in getting around the silly legal mumbo-jumbo they're throwing at you and getting this site to continue functioning roughly as it does now. I for one would be seriously, seriously bummed if M-L shuts down.

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by Wiley on 2009-04-17 12:47 EST

I'm pretty sure they're trying to avoid going to court at all.

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by Rotstejn on 2009-04-17 16:07 EST

serieusly, the worst thing u can do is spamming WoTC, I have experience with that xD

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by koolgogg on 2009-04-17 17:22 EST

Can you post more news as to where the league stands now? Because yesterday it looked like a few links and stuff were removed from the site and now they are back. So if you could like, appease my curiosity... that would be great.

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by Wiley on 2009-04-17 19:46 EST

Links to MWS and Apprentice are gone it seems. Netdraft has stayed because maybe like 30 people in the whole world use it regularly.

They changed the banner, also because it had a picture of a card in it. Looks like they're taking positive steps to not commit "copyright infringement". Also the forums have been deactivated I think.

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by Ashmatan on 2009-04-18 10:26 EST

I don't get it..
Lots of people said good points but the ones that stuck out to me were:
A) the fact that magic-league existed before MTGO
B) No one buys any cards on here--no one profits monetarily for being a member/administrator
C) if it's copyright infringment, then lessen the exactness of the cards in general, ie: no author, card #
just text boxes and their contents
D) images as in the picture on the home-page? if so, then that was bound to happen
E) simply stop using the word "magic" altogether on site. They forced Yu-Gi-Oh! to rename a whole set cuz of this crap. Anyone remember the "Magic Ruler" set when it came out? Later on the same booster packs were mysteriously renamed to "Spell Ruler"

hmm....

so that is my suggestion...

change all instances of the word "magic" to "spell" or "wizard"

I think that would work--www.wizard-league.com it's got a ring to it, don't you think?

To the Wizards trolls:
You guys obviously don't know what you are doing messing with this site. This site contains your most loyal players that fill your coffers at events all over the world, and you guys did nothing to start this site. It was started by players, for players. No one gets paid for doing what they do here. So essentially, it's like free advertising for your game and the best way to get new, fresh players playing. Isn't that what keeps the game going? New money? How can you reach a lot of people at once? Have players start a site on their own that is really nothing but free advertising for Magic: the Gathering? We do you a favor that costs you nothing, the people of m-l get paid nothing, the rewards you reap from this are ridiculous, and you repay us with e-threats? Are you guys trying to kill the game, or start a revolt? Cuz, I don't see any other outcome.

GG, Wizards. Way to epic megaphail. DUH!!!

:B

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by Tird_Ape on 2009-04-18 15:30 EST

Forums are gone? Gasp!

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by Trotsky1 on 2009-04-18 16:42 EST

Yeah is that a permannet thing or what?

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by ZeMuppet on 2009-04-18 23:20 EST

This site contains your most loyal players that fill your coffers at events all over the world, and you guys did nothing to start this site. It was started by players, for players. No one gets paid for doing what they do here. So essentially, it's like free advertising for your game and the best way to get new, fresh players playing. Isn't that what keeps the game going? New money? How can you reach a lot of people at once? Have players start a site on their own that is really nothing but free advertising for Magic: the Gathering? We do you a favor that costs you nothing, the people of m-l get paid nothing, the rewards you reap from this are ridiculous, and you repay us with e-threats? Are you guys trying to kill the game, or start a revolt? Cuz, I don't see any other outcome.

GG, Wizards. Way to epic megaphail. DUH!!!

-----

Exactly right, but Magic isn't Magic anymore.

Magic was a game made by players for players, very much like magic-league is. The current state of Magic, however, is just another tentacle from the evil commercial corporations.

This game is being rigged to sale cards, not to play a fun and intelligent game.

Just look at the "coverage" of Magic events. It's all fake to the extent of it's not known outside of a certain community.

If you walk up to a random person on the street and say "Magic: The Gathering", I would say about equal chances that that person will know what you are talking about

And about half of the people who know what Magic is know how to play it.

And half of those people know that magic tournaments exist.

Now here's where it gets crazy.

About 10 percent of those people are good players/not retarded

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by ZeMuppet on 2009-04-18 23:22 EST

*Note: Maybe 10 percent is too high

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by magic_cards on 2009-04-19 00:09 EST

so you're saying 25% of people who walk on streets know how to play magic?

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by DukeofDeath on 2009-04-19 02:28 EST

This site actually helps Wizards by promoting interest in their game. I would never ever spend money on electronic cards for MTGO. If not for sites like this and programs like MWS I may have quit magic a long time ago.

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by ZeMuppet on 2009-04-19 04:10 EST

Yeah, so we're really pathetic people who are clinging to the last thing the underground nerd culture had.

But they take it from us.

Just like they took computers, like they took pen and paper RPGs, like they took videogames, and like they took high quality english-dubbed animes.

All they care about is money. People playing on ML = people not buying packs of cards. People buying singles off ebay = people not buying packs of cards.

People, buy more packs of cards (at an outrageous price for a worthless bunch of cardboard) so ML can come back.

OUR MASTERS AT HASRBO DEMAND IS
[ and your first born sacrifice ]

but seriously, Hasbro, I piss on you. Yes it's true, I pee on you. I'll poop in your food.

Thank you for killing the last thing that made me love comic book stores.

---

by Master_Shake on 2009-04-19 06:53 EST

Clearly the correct answer is to host the site from a country that doesn't comply with international copyright laws.

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by NahHolmes on 2009-04-19 10:20 EST

ZeMuppet, how did they take computers when 99% of everything about computers has become favorable to the casual or homebrew user?

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by MiguelG on 2009-04-19 14:46 EST

:(

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by gypsy on 2009-04-19 16:34 EST

you guys can still use mws, i dont see what the big problem is... just play single matches which are a lot easier than waiting for a mini to start. stop acting like a bunch of babies bc you parents took away your fav toy and use whats available

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by Nakraton on 2009-04-20 06:34 EST

Who wants to play with Broodmother Dragon and Grey Ogre? Give us Pink Ponies in Honeymoon

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by boeda on 2009-04-20 06:42 EST

Hi, Im living in the Netherlands and thats where the site is run from if Im not mistaken, I dont think that in Dutch law it is possible to claim words like 'magic' or 'league' for that matter.

Im no expert on this but for those of you who feel responsible for this site:
Check the legal possibilities of magic-league and change whatever is needed.

The power of this game isnt in cardpiles, its us, the collective of players pondering at night about deckchanges and new cool combo's.

To my opinion we shouldnt get pessimistic about this but just adapt our minds to the meta.

grz boeda

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by TheBends on 2009-04-20 11:29 EST

If WotC was smart they would buy ml site and keep it open and profit with it keeping it free, just like bill gates does with small companies that threaten with new ideas, he buys and uses the ideas to his own profit.

But hey thats just me.

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by Kl3p_co on 2009-04-20 13:52 EST

I really dont get WoTC.Besides the reasons said above,also the pro players sometimes played here when the MODO servers were offline,so I rly dont know what is WoTCs idea of doing this.Anyway, as your site is not run from USA I dont think that you really need to be concerned about this :-)

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by PsyHye on 2009-04-22 13:15 EST

I agree with Wizards on this BUT here's the BIG PROBLEM WITH MAGIC:


the insane costs associated with it.

It's impossible to draft daily without going bankrupt. I wasted $1000s of dollars on the glitchy program.

If they let people play Magic Online for a monthly cost and have access to any card then it would actually be worth it.

But I don't know how anyone can afford to regularly play on magic online with new cards etc.

I wish Wizards could get it right and not be SOO greedy so I could come back and play the game I love...

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by Zeph on 2009-04-22 21:16 EST

WotC has become one more shitty company because all they think about is money. Is not about fun anymore. They lost Montecook in D&D due to the same reasons. Now they're losing a big amount of players because of their yu-gi-oh!-like sets (namely Lorwyn shit) and moves like this one. I can understand their position but is not healthy for the game anymore.

We can't fight them, we would lose. All we can do is wait for the people managing this page to think of some ways to keep playing while we avoid legal action.
________

To the newfag mentioning /b/ and the rule 1 and 2: those rules only apply to raids.
So, /b/ye! /b/ye!

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by siaoidiot on 2009-04-25 09:14 EST

Boo! DOWN with WotC-trollers!

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by Bejeezus on 2009-04-26 05:16 EST

Oh they just mad 'cause we stylin' on them.

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by Nantuko on 2009-04-26 23:51 EST

It's because they're niggers.

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by calcano on 2009-04-28 03:58 EST

Oh they just mad 'cause we stylin' on them.
LOL!

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by masterorb on 2009-04-28 10:30 EST

I love m-l although I have problems with Magic and in the periods when I play it, it cuts into my work life very badly (and it also sucks to constantly get beaten by you younger folks from Portugal). But I always wondered about this--When I found this site, it reminded me of Napster in '99. That being said, the work that people do putting this site up and maintaining it is incredible. I suppose the fair thing to do would be to find out how many people here play in tournaments/buy cards irl and how many don't and just do this?

Unfortunately I think i know the answer, but WotC should know: ****nobody who doesn't play irl now is going to start playing irl because you shut down this site****

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by dboy1 on 2009-05-03 14:03 EST

I vote for the pink ponies. if we did that itd be sweet AND itd solve the problems

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by Neoezekiel on 2009-05-09 02:54 EST

I honestly believe that the content that was linked to on m-l would fall under fair use. This would make it nearly impossible for WotC or any of its parent companies to do anything about it. Also from what I was able to find it is not possible to copyright the word magic or league and the site name is generic enough that there is really nothing they can do about it other than a lot of trash talk. WotC would be shooting themselves in the foot by closing down or trying to close down m-l.

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by Enrra on 2009-05-12 10:50 EST

I don't think it's unfair from Wizards to want their game to give them money. I mean, it's a business after all.

Anyways, I'm very poor, since I live in a poor country, where magic cards are stupidly expensive. I just can't play magic in real life, I just don't have the cash.

The only way to play magic in for me and most people in my country is in MWS and appr.

At any rate, those programs have no direct connection with magic. They are programs to manage TCGs in general, so they don't have any right to ask you to set the links off.

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by Trivial on 2009-05-14 16:30 EST

No, you don't copyright names. You trademark them. This is what WOTC has done. Posting copyrighted material does not invalidate copyright or make it somehow fair (use) game.

I do know a bit about intellectual property. The steps taken by m-l are wise (i.e., no posting of copyrighted material).

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by QuinRiva on 2009-05-19 01:24 EST

Just a quick note:

Copyright covers ARTWORK - which means all mana-symbols, card-pictures etc. are copyright of WotC.

Copyright does not cover text, this is why both MWS and apprentice can exist (although they have the ability to use pictures, the pics aren't included as part of the programme itself, and must be acquired through a third-party).

So, I don't see what the problem running anything on ML is? The use of card names, and game mechanics IS perfectly legal. Even if something is copyrighted (such as a card name), it is still perfectly legal to use that name in reference to that item.

For instance a non-fiction novel (in its entirety) is considered a work of art and thus copyrighted; the name is generally trademarked - but it is still perfectly legitimate to use that name where needs be – for instance: I am selling the book “The Hungry Caterpillar”. It is impossible to reference this book, without referencing the title. Similarly you can write an article about Nike, without having to worry about TM issues, because the name is used in reference to a specific product/company/etc. The law that covers illegitimate use of TM’s is called passing off – and this has nothing to do with your use of cards etc.

Wizards’ doesn’t have a case, because nothing you are doing violates copyright. Period. Neither Apprentice nor MWS (as sold/distributed) violate copyright. The HQ card pictures on Slightly-Magic do violate copyright, but that is irrelevant as they merely provide a third party addon, to a third party programme (that is legal) that is in no way directly linked to Magic-League.

Really, you guys have nothing to fear, it’s a generic C&D that is sent out – similar to a lot of the DMCA take down notices (and is actually a violation of the law). In this particular situation the only one that has broken the law is WotC.

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by BettyMagnet on 2009-06-07 03:51 EST

I thought copyright infringement only applied if money was being made by using the copyrighted material.

Since Magic-League doesn't charge to play Magic, I don't see what the problem is.

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