Lorwyn Block Constructed Deck lists: BW Doran, WW Kithkin, Mono Red Aggro, GWb Doran

by sgtpepper87 on 2008-07-27 15:03 EST

my matchups in this trial:

2-0 vs UB GraveGames
2-1 vs UB GraveGames
2-1 vs UB GraveGames
Bye
1-2 vs Kithkin

lol

by magic_man11 on 2008-07-27 15:13 EST

7 grave games decks and not 1 made top 4? awkward?

by Markwerf on 2008-07-27 15:30 EST

my matchups:
2-1 RDW
2-0 some 5c deck with doran
2-0 RDW
2-0 5c
1-2 BW doran

Made a big mistake against the BW deck which made me loose game 1 most likely. Game 2 i curved out and got lucky to not face a forge tender, game 3 i lost hard to double forge tender double doran draw i didnt side against forge tender as i hoped he didnt play it.

by onecleanceli on 2008-07-27 15:40 EST

glad to see that the eruption of kelpie.dec was exactly what i expected... EVERYONE wants to play it and its not amazing and they dont know how to either

by Shogun on 2008-07-27 15:50 EST

I think the best build for the kelpie deck has not been found yet. It is powerful. And hard to play.

I played against 1, and he played dripple ravens crime in first 2 turns in all 3 games :)

My deck seemed to work better in from-the-top-mode.

by PV on 2008-07-27 16:00 EST

I dont see how discarding 2 lands in the first 2 turns can be good in a deck that needs 5 lands in play to start operating :/

shogun: dont you think stillmoon cavalier is better than hatchling? I know he is kinda bad with doran out, but even then its 1/1 first strike pro black pro white vs a 2/2

by compaq on 2008-07-27 16:01 EST

of course you win again me draw 4 colossus
2 doran 2 cloud oversoul after you have no card iin hand FUCKING LUCKY ..........

by magic_man11 on 2008-07-27 16:14 EST

my matchups:

round 1- 2-0 5c good stuff
round 2- 2-0 ub kelpie with alot of changes( lol game 1 discard a liege)
round 3- 2-1 5c goodstuff
round 4- 2-0 faeries
round 5- 2-1 doran rock
round 6- Drop

by JohnRambo on 2008-07-27 17:08 EST

round 4- 2-0 Luck...

by magic_man11 on 2008-07-27 17:22 EST

unlikely! i havent ever had a problem with fae yet!!

by MitchMachine on 2008-07-27 18:58 EST

i played gravegames and tested really well, but never expected to play doran (sgtpepper87) and 2 times i fully had the board but just being p0wned by a colossus too bad

by magic_man11 on 2008-07-27 19:04 EST

lol this is why I like kithkin no problem with cc or dusk lol!

by Kurse on 2008-07-27 19:23 EST

Is that RDW any good? It looks really awkward...

Trip Noose, Shreikmaw, one hurly-burly, festercreep? One swamp and one reflecting pool. bluh, just looks so random...

by Markwerf on 2008-07-27 20:49 EST

The RDW is really good yes, it really beats the more controllish strategies like fae and 5c pretty hard. The black is for the sideboard because red alone has big problems dealing with some stuff mostly kithkin. Shriekmaw kills off any annoying forge tenders and is great against much other stuff, festercreep is to help deal with token cards which are a problem like spectral procession and so does hurly burly. Trip noose is really great against any GW, BW, GWb fat stuff kind of decks. Taps down doran, finks, colossus, oversoul etc which are far more hard to deal with otherwise, its also quite good against elementals tapping lark and killing mannequined stuff. Finally the black allows beckon apparition which is great against mannequin, finks, lark etc.
The reflecting pool i forgot to switch for a mountain, it was there for when i tried soul snuffers SB, for the rest the deck is solid, though im still not sure about going up a land and adding the demigod package is perhaps better, not much to remove though.

by Kurse on 2008-07-27 22:51 EST

To be honest, I don't believe you when you say it beats Fae. Any person that says their deck beats Fae hasn't tested that matchup enough. Perhaps, it "can" beat Fae. But, doesn't actually post like a 70-30 or even a 60-40 matchup? I just don't see it. Markwerf, have you actually shuffled this deck up in paper Magic and tested the Fae matchup and posted good results? If so, then I might just copy that exact list and bring it to my PTQ this weekend. I've been craving for a good RDW list. But, some of this seems.... questionable.

by Juanito_ on 2008-07-28 00:07 EST

the RDW build seems to be tailor made. it's good for the one who made it. it doesn't make sense to other players...like me. HELL! if it works, it works!

there are stuffs in the build that i don't get. like the trip noose. i tested it in my SB of my rdw deck and played fnm. it's theoretically good 'cause it shuts down fatties. but when i used it, it slowed me down. instead of dropping more threats to finish him off. i was leaving 2 mana open for trip. and for a deck that works w/ 3 lands, optimum w/ 4, and slaughters w/ 5. the 2 mana every turn was a waste. especially when your opponent finds a way to circle around the noose or worse drop another threat.

but a win is a win. GOOD JOB!

by Bartok on 2008-07-28 00:14 EST

Nice to see all thoose eventide cards do well.

by onecleanceli on 2008-07-28 01:28 EST

RDW should pwn fae all day, period

by Kurse on 2008-07-28 02:20 EST

onecleanceli - That is what I thought as well. Then I actually played the matchup. It's about 60-40 in their favor, if not worse. I must be playing the matchup wrong because it feels like the only way I can win is if my Fae opponent doesn't draw any Cryptic Commands or Mistbind Cliques.

Are you shooting their creatures with your burn or are you just throwing it all at their dome? I've tried just going the aggressive way and not using any of the burn on any of their creatures, even throwing Tarfire EOT at their dome. Doesn't work. They just race you. Easy. So, then the other option is to spend burn on their dudes to clear the way for blockers, but Blossom ensures that they will always have a blocker for your guy, not to mention the extra guys they play in addition to the tokens, so that seems like a losing proposition for a Red Deck.

I don't see how you can say RDW should pwn fae all day. How are you playing the matchup?

by Shagrath on 2008-07-28 06:46 EST

"BW Doran" lol

by Markwerf on 2008-07-28 11:38 EST

Kurse - Cryptic command and mistbind are really not that special against this deck, if you play it well they are usually forced to play cryptic for bounce draw or even tap draw which is no card advantage for them. Mistbind is answered by flame javelin, puncture blast or pumping your figure to 4/4 and then just trade, not to mention they can only play it when they have bitterblossom because otherwise you are sure to burn away the champion targets.
About burning away the blockers i generally do so when i got tattermunge, if you suspect scion make sure to have double burn though. They only have blockers when they got bitterblossom which means that usually after the first 2 tokens i start throwing burn at them.

edit- matchup percentages are hard to say since it really matters if the fae players knows how to play against this RDW and on the configuration (thoughtseize or broken ambitions main and wether they have consign to dream in SB). Id guess in the range of 55-65% though.

by dellmarcus on 2008-07-28 13:27 EST

Markwerf, I have a different take on RDW than you, but I am very very intruiged by your black splash for the sideboard. Back in the Onslaught block days, I played goblins, and since then, I have wished that I had the guts to splash black in that deck to deal with silver knights. If you wanted to have a discussion about this deck, dellmarcus@hotmail.com.

I disagree with the vexing shusher's main. They don't do enough against enough decks, especially your worst matchup in kithkin. I think flame jab is a very bad burn spell in this deck, it does't do enough, I mean, what does it really kill? On top of that, it's a sorcery, so you can't even effectively use it against fae. Finally, I have the same problem with tattermunge that I have with the shusher, it's horrible in your already bad matchups. I haven't fully decided yet, but I am running intimidator initiates in that slot, and I am VERY happy with it so far. In any case, I think your deck is very interesting, and I might have to change things around to make it work for my local GP in less than 2 weeks :)

by Markwerf on 2008-07-28 14:24 EST

flame jab is in testing as its good early on against many decks to remove a 1/1 which many decks play (elementals, fae, kith, mirror, merfolk) and later on its just good with spare lands to kill. I agree that it could go out but i like it being cheap. It actually is great against fae, kill a bb token on your own turn and have mana left to kill the scion he might cast.
Vexing shusher main is because its great against a big part of the metagame (merfolk, gravegames, fae, 5c) and is a goblin which matters for auntie;s hovel. As a bear its usually the same as stigma lasher by the way.
Tattermunge is not horrible in any matchup really and is essential for this deck, first of all its a goblin and secondly on turn 1 it hits for 4 or soaks up a removal almost all the time. Against some matchups its bad indeed but noone plays forgetender main and you can always side it out.
Intimidator initiate blows as its only 1/1 and the ability costs mana to activate.

by dellmarcus on 2008-07-28 14:44 EST

Oof, I was ready to debate until I heard you say that nobody plays forge-tender main. Every kithkin deck worth anything now runs FT main. And you auto-side out the maniacs against well...almost every deck but elementals and 5c, which this deck blows out anyway. Merfolk is the only deck I would keep the maniacs in against post side. As for flame jab...I just think its far too limited in it's range, I see your point about burning BB tokens, as that is just as good as going to the face, but against ele's, you are only hitting smokebraiders, kithkin you are only hitting tokens or harriers(which they won't be playing g2), even in the mirror it really doesn't kill anything important. As far as intimidator, I can't tell you how good he has been, you can only see it when your opponent is at 10, just played their collossus, and you have intimidator, lasher and ram gang, you throw flame jav to the face, make the colossus unable to block and swing ftw. The little guy just does SO much, and adds so much play to your deck that he can't be disregarded that easily.

by Markwerf on 2008-07-28 15:04 EST

ok some play forge tender main but not many do, UW wizards/merfolk is a bit out of favor now there's UGB merfolk and even UW didnt play it main really. Kithkin has 8 1 drops in stalwart and figure (which is v good against firespout too) and thus plays forge tender side. The rest of the decks really play it in side or not at all so i agree there is some forge tender main but not much overall. Maniacs actually are not sided out against anything but kithkin. Its really fantastic against fae for example and i can not understand you would NOT play it against that. Even on the draw it gets in 1 free hit against blossom and then you just burn away the first token for another.
The overall game plan is to burn away blockers and hit with this deck which means tattermunge is great and intimidator has a redundant function. You mention a typical overkill situation in which you win anyway which is often the case with intimidator. Early on you never want to activate him because you want to curve out (i mean i 10x rather burn away a blocker then activate my intimidator) and later on he sucks cuz he is 1/1. So overall he is just worse then tattermunge. If you like to play rageforger.dec he is ok but that really is about it.

by dellmarcus on 2008-07-28 15:30 EST

I see your point, I will give it a shot with the maniac, but you have to give it a shot with intimidator before you write him off as well, laf. I do understand the concept of the deck, burning blockers and swinging, but I find it hard to say that the intimidator is redundant, as instead of having to burn out blockers, you can throw burn to the head and still attack unblocked. Also, in the face of something like a finks that you don't *want* to die and come back, you can basically take away all the aspects of a persist creature like him. Again, I will test with the maniac, but I don't think intimidators should be automatically discounted.

by NanoWar on 2008-07-28 18:56 EST

I'd do 2 Tattermunge Maniac + 2 Intimidator Initiate ;)

by ART on 2008-07-28 19:14 EST

you guys talk so much

by aldaryn on 2008-07-28 19:34 EST

You say that like it's a bad thing. This forum area is for constructive discussion like this. Props to both, it was interesting to read even though I will never play RDW, i'd like to understand decks i might face.

by Kurse on 2008-07-28 21:04 EST

I played Initiate in my build and he is very good versus green decks but he is absolutely awful versus decks like Merfolk and Fae. I agree with Markwerf on that. It isn't what the deck needs. There are no big mid-range decks that people are packing. You need to beat a massive amount of 1/1 tokens in this format (Kithkin/Fae).

Markwerf - How do you sideboard against Fae with your deck? And isn't Faerie Macabre better than Apparition? How good is Festercreep, really? Wouldn't a green splash be better as this gives you access to Cloudthresher/Firespout?

by floodstorm64 on 2008-07-28 21:49 EST

It was my instinct to play 4X intimidator and 4X tattermunge maniac for a more 'sligh' build than rdw build.

it was also my instinct to play 2X Flame Jab, to turn extra lands into damage.

I also thought about dominus of fealty, but haven't tried that one yet. seems useful. Forge-tender is a huge problem for that deck. You will just lose if they draw a forge-tender.

by floodstorm64 on 2008-07-28 22:01 EST

Also, the guy that gives your guys first strike seems good.

by Markwerf on 2008-07-28 22:27 EST

Kurse - faerie macabre and apparition are close calls, the fact that macabre hits one card more doesnt really matter but he is free, apparition gives a flyer though but cant be casted for a 2/2 flyer. Overall its really a close call and i think the B mana cost is not that bad (you wont use it before makeshift comes online anyway) and the 1/1 gives it the edge, perhaps its just my subconscious desire to use EVE cards speaking though.
Boarding against fae is -2 stigma lasher -1 lash out +2 vexing shusher +1 hurly burly. THe festercreep is for kithkin alone as a means to handle both forgetender and tokens the 2 things this deck is horribly against.
Also green splash is harder to do as there is no tribal land for it, and you really need R mana from all your lands, this means you would have to sacrifice to much stuff or start playing crap like manamorphose. Finally you would think that since there are plenty of warriors in this list you might as well go bramblewood paragon and wren's run vanquisher instead of stigma lasher and then you get a totally different deck (which is not neccesarily bad)
Its funny you mention dominus of fealty in the same paragraph as forge tender floodstorm as it could actually be a red solution for it, since its not the fealty that targets but you i believe. If im right this means that fealty can steal forge tender and then after dmg is done if it still lives can sac it targeting dominus, kithkin is scarce on removal so this might even work.

by Kurse on 2008-07-28 23:04 EST

Dominus doesn't work. It says "target permanent". So, it can't target Forge-Tender.

Can you just give me an idea of how you board against other decks? Doran? 5c Elementals? Merfolk?

by Markwerf on 2008-07-28 23:25 EST

doran (can depend on list): -2 vexing +2 trip noose
5c (again depends on list but ill assume one with both finks and counters here): -3 lash out -2 flame jab +2 vexing +3 beckon apparition
elementals: -2 vexing -3 puncture blast +2 trip noose +3 beckon apparition
merfolk(again... depends on list): -2 stigma -3 puncture blast +3 shriekmaw +2 vexing

Tattermunge on the play ill always leave in on the draw against aggro it can be sided out.

by floodstorm64 on 2008-07-29 01:01 EST

unfortunately dominus seems to be out of the question, mainly because Demigod of Revenge is miles better - be it 2X, 3X, or 4X.

Compare Trip Noose and Intimidator Initiate. I see one fitting the deck and the other not.

by RaiSalcedo on 2008-07-29 09:32 EST

watever markwerf!!! just play and win!!!... just to show how much you've talked about...
... i just wonder what happened to faeries?

by Shagrath on 2008-07-29 13:53 EST

All hail "Bw Doran"