Written by georgjorge on January 09, 2007
An Introduction to the Legacy Scene
by georgjorgeWhy even bother playing Legacy, a format which Wizards doesn’t really care much about, and which might be perceived of as stagnant with the majority of its card pool never changing? I will give you some reasons why Legacy might be worth a try.
Its large card pool (everything from Alpha to Time Spiral) enables constant innovation; there will always be some combo or deck idea that no one has (or hasn’t) tried yet. This facet allows you to keep building your own decks, and also ensures that frequently you will find yourself playing against cards and decks you didn’t know existed, but which are viable nonetheless. On the other hand, if you do have a “pet deck” that you built yourself and which you know the ins-and-outs of, you will never have to abandon it because some of rotations, but you will be able to keep playing and evolving it. For example, you might be able to play Legacy competitively even if you didn’t take any notice of the last few editions released. Another reason for playing Legacy is the power level: the cards played in Legacy satisfy the power gamer in me, while, contrary to Vintage, there are no “I win” cards. These cards completely turn the game in one topdeck, like Yawgmoth’s Will (Wizards seem to do a good job with the banned list so far).
Speaking of power level, in order to provide you with a first look at the format, I’ll give you some examples of cards that are among the most played and most powerful in Legacy, in comparison with others which might seem decent but have not quite what it takes to be present in a great number of decks.
Powerful cards:
-Dark Confidant – coupled with discard or a Mother of Runes, allows you to bury your -opponent under card advantage starting with turn two.
-Swords to Plowshares – best removal in the game.
-Life from the Loam – an unchecked Life will take control fast, cycling through the deck and killing mana bases with Wasteland.
Decent cards that don’t have what it takes:
-Hypnotic Specter – too slow without Ritual and killed easily even if played on turn one.
-Wild Mongrel – generally too little impact for its cost without massive madness spells.
-Wrath of God – four mana is too much for a defensive card which doesn’t lock up the game by itself.
-Counterspell – due to decks like Goblins, turn two might just be one turn too late.
Top Decks
With the general introduction out of the way, I will now shortly describe the five decks I see as being the best and most widely played in Legacy right now so as to provide you with a starting point into the Legacy metagame. The playing field is pretty diverse, though, with an estimated ten to twelve decks being Tier 1 or 1.5 right now. Some of them are decks that you will also find in Extended, but some are only playable in this format.
1. Vial Goblins
This deck likes attacking with a horde of creatures, but you should make no mistake: this is not your average beatdown deck which can be stopped by a single Pyroclasm or Silver Knight. Goblins.dec has two major strengths, apart from the obvious synergies between the various Goblins: First, it cheats on mana costs with Warchief, Vial and the dreaded first-turn Lackey, allowing it to actually get third-turn kills sometimes. Second, because of this it can afford to play more expensive and powerful stuff, like Ringleader and Siege-Gang, allowing it to out-control other beatdown decks and to recover pretty fast from mass removal. White seems to be the best color to be splashed here, allowing to deal with larger creatures, although there are also versions splashing green for Tin-Street Hooligan and Krosan Grip. In its various versions, this is the most widely played deck right now, and one of the first questions a new deck builder asks himself is “how do I deal with first-turn Lackey ?”. Its main weakness, however, are combo decks, which are often faster than Goblins, and only have to fear the Pillar from the board.
| Rw Vial Goblins | ||
|---|---|---|
| Main Deck | Sideboard | |
|
6 Mountain 4 Plateau 4 Wasteland 4 Bloodstained Mire 4 Wooded Foothills 4 Goblin Lackey 4 Goblin Warchief 4 Aether Vial |
4 Goblin Ringleader 4 Gempalm Incinerator 4 Goblin Piledriver 4 Goblin Matron 3 Mogg Fanatic 3 Siege-Gang Commander 1 Goblin Tinkerer 3 Swords to Plowshares |
|
Sideboard:
-Pyrokinesis – smaller (Goblins, Fish) and bigger creatures (Faerie Stompy).
-Disenchant – most likely targets: Survival of the Fittest, Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice,
Worship in threshold. Some old-school decks also play Moat. Of course, there is also
a Stax variant out there.
-Red Elemental Blast – like in every format, there is a lot of blue in this one too. This gives the deck a much-needed chance against Solidarity, and Faerie Stompy of course, but really comes in for a lot of matchups.
-Pyrostatic Pillar – the best combo decks all use a “storm” kill, playing ten to fifteen spells per turn
Tormod’s Crypt – free protection against life from the loam, important against threshold
Some advice on playing this deck: Generally, you shouldn’t keep a hand only on the basis that it has Goblin Lackey in it, since many decks in Legacy aim to have as many kill options as possible for it. If playing against a deck with counters in it, Vial and Ringleader are to be valued highly. If playing against a deck with fast creatures, you will often want to play the role of a control deck, relying on Incinerators, Siege-Gangs and Ringleaders for card advantage, as well as on Aether Vials to play combat tricks.
2. Threshold
This is one of the most consistent decks in the format, with a not-so-complicated game-plan: play various blue cantrips to dig through your library and achieve threshold, then drop green under-costed mid-range creatures and beat with them, with Daze and Force of Will providing the necessary disruption. I find the deck somewhat boring to play, but it can run on very few lands and has a good midgame. Seeing as a three-color manabase is easily supported in Legacy, Threshold runs either white or red as the tertiary color. Although the white splash seems to be better overall, red has the big advantage of providing protection against Goblins with Pyroclasm.
| Threshold | ||
|---|---|---|
| Main Deck | Sideboard | |
|
1 Island 4 Flooded Strand 4 Windswept Heath 4 Tropical Island 4 Tundra 4 Brainstorm 4 Mental Note 4 Serum Visions 2 Predict |
4 Nimble Mongoose 4 Werebear 2 Mystic Enforcer 4 Force of Will 4 Daze 4 Swords to Plowshares 3 Meddling Mage 2 Counterspell 2 Stifle |
|
Sideboard:
Tormod’s Crypt – see Goblins sideboard.
Worship – in combination with mongoose, you won’t die to damage.
Hail Storm – another card against Goblins, especially since they usually come at you with haste.
Jotun Grunt – this is a really great creature in the format. It has anti-synergy with the threshold gameplan, but comes in basically in the same matchups as Crypt, while providing good beats.
Naturalize - see the description for Disenchant in the Goblins sideboard.
Some advice on playing this deck: Keeping one-mana hands is ok most of the time, as you don’t need much and will draw into it pretty fast. The cantripping also ensures that you will see a lot of your deck, so only use your counters if absolutely necessary, because the chances of you drawing that Swords or Naturalize later on are good. Generally, you don’t aim for a fast win except against combo or very controllish decks. This is more a deck that wins with card advantage, which comes from three sources: a) having only seventeen lands will increase your mid- and lategame b) the cantrips provide card selection c) your creatures will generally be bigger than your opponent’s. A big problem for this deck are other decks that clog up the ground with a horde of creatures. Your solution here is only Mystic Enforcer, and Pyroclasm in the red version.
3. Solidarity
A mono-blue combo deck based around High Tide, Reset and lots of card drawing, this usually plays a massive Brain Freeze or Stroke of Genius on turn three or four. You really have to see this deck in action to believe how many draw spells can be chained together in a single turn! When the combo is running, the extra mana provided by Resets and the extra draw from Meditates sometimes enables one to draw the whole deck. It does, however, run the risk of fizzling mid-combo before having played the necessary amount of spells for a lethal Freeze, if it is forced to combo too soon. The beauty of it is that all of the card draw is instants, so the deck can actually go off in response to lethal damage, at the last possible moment. Additionally, it even manages to play some protection against disruption with Force and Cunning Wish, making it one of the most resilient (if not the fastest) combo decks out there.
| Solidarity | ||
|---|---|---|
| Main Deck | Sideboard | |
|
12 Island 4 Flooded Strand 1 Polluted Delta 4 High Tide 4 Reset 3 Turnabout 4 Brainstorm 4 Accumulated Knowledge |
4 Impulse 3 Meditate 2 Twincast 1 Words of Wisdom 4 Remand 4 Force of Will 3 Cunning Wish 3 Brain Freeze |
|
Sideboard (for Cunning Wish):
Turnabout – you know why.
Chain of Vapor – this innocent-looking card is a great boon for blue-based combo, getting rid of True Believers, Pyrostatic Pillar and Meddling Mage for almost no cost.
Brain Freeze – you know why.
Meditate – you know why.
Hydroblast – against Goblins of course, killing the first-turn Lackey or the second turn Pillar. You probably don’t have to worry about the other Goblins if you manage to kill those two.
Stroke of Genius – for winning on the spot, and for an alternative kill.
Words of Wisdom – like Stroke of Genius, but cheaper.
Evacuation – against multiple anti-combo creatures, like True Believer and Meddling Mage.
Rebuild – against Stax, which is probably your worst matchup.
Disrupt – not for Cunning Wish, but for boarding in four of them against bad matchups like B/W discard, threshold, or counter-based control.
Some advice on playing this deck: You should hardly ever go for the kill if you don’t have to, that is if there isn’t lethal damage on the stack or the opponent threatening to take control. This usually will be on the opponents turn because of Reset. Some exceptions may be decks like threshold that play a lot of card draw to sculpt the perfect hand to stop you. You may have to combo early rather than late here. Another thing about the card drawing: DON’T cast those spells before going off, with the exception being that you need to draw land (you should hit your first four or five land drops). As for going off, there are some things to remember: Brain Freeze will empty their library, but you will have to play a Stroke or Words afterwards if they are going to kill you with lethal damage. Some people play Gaea’s Blessing in their sideboards against this deck, and if you suspect them of it, you should just wait with your Freeze until you cast multiple Freezes and a Stroke, then let the Blessing trigger, Freeze them in response, and Freeze them again if there is another Blessing in the library, then Stroke them out. You should also be aware that, though not that likely, there is also an alternative kill not involving Freeze, getting tons of mana with Resets and Turnabouts, then Stroking them out. Another trick is Remand: if you are some spells short of a Freeze kill, play Freeze – the storm copies go onto the stack – then Remand it, and play it again.
4. Faerie Stompy
Another mono-blue deck, this one is aggro-control like Threshold. It uses eight two-mana lands and four Mox Diamonds (or Chrome Moxes) to accelerate into under-costed flyers and outrun the opponent while playing disruption. Its most powerful card, however, is Chalice of the Void, which can be dropped for one on the first turn, and can cause major problems for nearly every other deck in the format while still allowing the three-mana creatures to hit play (just check out the other decks to see which spells a Chalice for one will counter). Because of Chalice (and Trinket Mage to fetch it), the deck is favourable against combo and control. Against creature decks, on the other hand, it either tries to outrace them, or establishes reusable creature kill with its assorted equipments. Maybe its biggest weakness is that it cannot reliably answer the first-turn-lackey on the draw, although Propaganda in the sideboard helps this matchup.
| Faerie Stompy | ||
|---|---|---|
| Main Deck | Sideboard | |
|
12 Island 4 Mox Diamond 4 City of Traitors 4 Ancient Tomb 2 Mishras Factory 4 Sea Drake 4 Serendib Efreet 3 Cloud of Faeries |
3 Looter il-Kor 4 Chalice of the Void 4 Force of Will 3 Trinket Mage 2 Serum Visions 1 Pithing Needle 3 Sword of Fire and Ice 3 Umezawa’s Jitte |
|
Sideboard:
Propaganda – only useful against Goblins, it can save a game you thought already lost, but has the big drawback of not being able to wear a Jitte.
Pithing Needle – this is one of the most versatile cards in the game, and specifically answers Aether Vial, Survival of the Fittest, Wasteland, Gempalm Incinerator etc.
Powder Keg – comes in against Fish or other weenie decks, as well as Affinity.
Tormods Crypt – a one-of for Trinket Mage.
Cursed Scroll – a one-of for Trinket Mage, comes in against anything packing small creatures.
Stifle – very versatile, and gives this deck something to do on the first turn. Great against storm-based combo, and often boarded in if on the play to stifle that first-turn fetchland.
Hydroblast – Goblin hate. If you kill that first-turn Lackey, you’re halfway there.
Treachery – Not so many targets in the metagame, but it is a powerful card. Comes in against Threshold, and decks packing Exalted Angel.
Some advice on playing this deck: Chalice for one should be played on your first turn if at all possible, and usually play it before you drop your big flyers to shut down Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolts. You should try to be the beatdown deck in most cases, as many decks can’t handle two or three big flyers during the first turns of the game, and if you try this strategy, don’t be afraid to Force a Swords or Bolt. Mulligan aggressively because a good hand should be able to play big flyers from the second turn on. Never sideboard out more than three creatures, and keep in mind that your Factories can be equipped too. Against Goblins, you should do well UNLESS a first-turn lackey gets through, which may be tricky to prevent with the removal present in Goblins, so Force that guy if you can. Against Threshold, you can afford to play the control deck, as either a Chalice for one or a Mage into Tormod’s Crypt will probably be more than enough for the win.
5. UWB Fish
Seems like there’s always a fish deck in the metagame; it’s a deck whose cards seem a bit underpowered, but are carefully chosen for causing problems for the most widely played archetypes. This one is a bit similar to Threshold, except the creatures are smaller utility creatures, and the card drawing isn’t that abundant. This deck tries to disrupt the opponent’s gameplan as much as possible, eventually killing with continuous beats. A fish deck can actually be all colors in this metagame, but blue and black are the best disruption colors, and white is the best color for utility creatures.
| UWB Fish | ||
|---|---|---|
| Main Deck | Sideboard | |
|
4 Flooded Strand 3 Polluted Delta 4 Tundra 3 Underground Sea 1 Scrubland 1 Plains 1 Island 4 Mother of Runes 4 Dark Confidant 4 Meddling Mage 3 Jotun Grunt |
3 Silver Knight 2 Serendib Efreet 4 Force of Will 4 Swords to Plowshares 3 Daze 3 Duress 2 Stifle 1 Vindicate 4 Brainstorm 2 Serum Visions |
|
Sideboard:
Pithing Needle – see Faerie Stompy sideboard.
Tormod’s Crypt – see Goblins sideboard.
Perish – against Threshold and the various Survival builds.
Engineered Plague – Goblins. It doesn’t kill most of them, but makes combat harder for then.
Tivadar’s Crusade – Goblins too. This kills all of them, but don’t play it too early, as this deck can have a hard time killing the opponent in time.
Serenity – against Stax, Faerie Stompy, and Affinity.
Spectral Lynx – Threshold and weenie decks in general. Fits with the utility creature theme nicely.
Some advice on playing this deck: The key to playing this is to know the common matchups really well, and knowing which cards hurt certain decktypes the most. You have to know what to name with Meddling Mage, whether a Confidant or an Efreet is better to bait out the opponent’s removal, which creature you should protect with a Mother, and so on. You also should have a good grasp of your metagame and change this deck around according to it. This should do pretty well against combo and control, but can have problems against creature decks, since you don’t pack mass removal and your creatures will often be smaller than your opponent’s. You may have to use your counters on ordinary creatures here, hoping to slow your opponent down enough for you to beat with a creature protected by Mother, or an Efreet. General advice on this deck is to keep a Confidant alive for as long as possible, protecting it with a Mother, or using Forces and Duresses to counter threats, since three or four turns of Confidant advantage will greatly increase your chances of winning. Building and tuning your own deck
I obviously won’t give a decklist here, but rather some general thoughts about the metagame as it is now, and some situations that your deck will come up against and will have to be able to handle. First, the general observations:
-There is no real tier 1 control deck present right now. Decks relying heavily on counterspells have a hard time against threshold and goblins, and decks relying on board control usually do not have the resources to stop storm-based combo. Some control decks try to abuse a certain card themselves (Life from the Loam or Survival of the Fittest), but nobody has had a major breakthrough so far.
-Fetchlands are all over the place, even in mono-colored builds of Goblins and Solidarity. Dual lands are all over the place too, and together with Fetchlands allow for a very stable three-color mana base. On the one hand, that means that even within specific archetypes, there’s always variation and innovation, as a different third color splash can have a big impact (like UGW Threshold compared to UGR Threshold). On the other hand, it means that a mana denial strategy that takes advantage of the big reliance on fetchlands with Stifles, Needles or Suppression Field, and aim at duals with stuff like Wasteland, Back to Basic and Blood Moon, could be viable.
-For a format with a high power level and all of the good spot and mass removal available, there is a surprisingly high number of decks relying on small creatures to win. Packing mass removal in the form of Pyroclams and the likes is probably not the worst idea.
-The format is fast. There are possible first-turn kills, second-turn kills, and not-so-infrequent third-turn-kills, including Goblins. Whether you plan on killing your opponent as soon as possible or disrupting his game, you better do it pretty fast.
-Relying on one or two big creatures for the win – like Reanimator – is probably a bad idea, as Swords to Plowshares is played in literally EVERY deck that can support it. Relying on one big spell is similarly bad, as the same goes for Force of Will.
Now if you have built or netdecked yourself a deck which you want to try out, here are some situations that your deck should have answers too (of course, “killing the opponent first” can be an answer too). It doesn’t have to have an answer for everything listed here, but should at least theoretically be able to deal with most of it.
-A Chalice for one on your opponent’s first turn.
-A Mother of Runes on turn one, followed by a Dark Confidant or a Meddling Mage set to your best spell.
-A Goblin Lackey on turn one with a Siege-Gang or Ringleader in hand (you knew this was coming).
-A morphed creature on turn one being unmorphed into Exalted Angel on turn two.
-A first turn Serendib Efreet being equipped a Umezawa’s Jitte on turn two.
-On turn three, your opponent drops two Lion’s Eye Diamond, then plays Ill-gotten gains, getting back the Diamonds and an Infernal Tutor, gets Gains again and continues until he plays Tendrils of Agony for fifteen.
-A first turn Duress, second turn Hymn to Tourach then a third turn Pox.
-A first turn Mox Diamond and Wasteland, playing Life from the Loam then destroying a nonbasic land every turn from turn two on.
Having said all this, I hope I have managed to provide a first glimpse at the beautiful format that is Legacy. At the end of the article, I have to make a confession though: as much as my goal is to spread joy and happiness among my fellow league players, it is not my only goal! My selfish secret plan is to brainwash some of you into playing Legacy, increasing attendance at the Legacy Trials (there should be one in three weeks or so), and thus, in the long run, fulfil my TRUE goal of always having a Legacy tourney to join when I enter the chatroom! So know that you are performing a good deed by entering.
-georgjorge
Linkman on 2007-01-09 15:08 MDT 1st.
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Linkman on 2007-01-09 15:09 MDT 2nd
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Linkman on 2007-01-09 15:09 MDT 3rd
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Linkman on 2007-01-09 15:09 MDT Hmm... I like the article though. Also, Aether Vial should be banned.. like in extended.
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jheezy on 2007-01-09 15:41 MDT i think that m-l should have a legacy master and hopefully this will convince them. i think the article was pretty good too.
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IanRobbins on 2007-01-09 16:17 MDT I dont think the goblins list is very good, swords maindeck??? over lighting bolt, 3 fanatic? Seems weird. Most goblins decks seem to running the 8x corlesses, whichi im in high favor off since it dosnt hurt your consistancy much. ALso for solidarity it is stupid to go off with dmg on the stack, there is no reason, you want to do it before since if you cant combo off sometimes you can get a evac from the board.
You should have put on IggyPop and Landstill, even though it dosnt see much play.
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yavin1 on 2007-01-09 16:28 MDT mogrol is very playable. UG madness won that huge tourni. and you didn't mention force of will as a "power card"
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Erebus- on 2007-01-09 16:31 MDT Good article, but why did you not include any good combo decks or control decks? Why didn't you put a sideboard for Solidarity? Its a very important part of the deck with Wishes of course.
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IanRobbins on 2007-01-09 16:37 MDT And BW Homebrew
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Hank333 on 2007-01-09 16:43 MDT Isn't there a grand prix(clombus i belive) coming up that is legacy, that should break the format wide open... Yawgmoths Will was in the picture because it is banned, it was his examaple of a "i win" type card.
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Equinox- on 2007-01-09 16:44 MDT Like all these lists were stole from teh source.
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psu42 on 2007-01-09 17:05 MDT this isn't a very innovative format, there are really only about 3 big decks and they have been around forever (goblins, threshold, high tide combo of some sort)..yes there are other good decks but they really just don't have what it takes
i do agree i wish there were more eternal minis and trials, however t1 owns legacy
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Eldariel on 2007-01-09 17:37 MDT Legacy is pretty wide-open. There've been Top 8 finishes in large tournaments with everything from 4-colour Landstill to Gamekeeper/Salvagers (although I agree that you should rather play a more resilient combo than the pseudo control of Salvagers) to Loam-a-Geddon. People somehow have the false perception that those 3 decks are somehow better than the rest of the format, which just isn't the case. They're solid decks, they're proven decks, but they're very beatable too and all have their weaknesses (although part of their strength is just that their weaknesses are very difficult to abuse).
A nice article though. I find the Goblins- and Faerie Stompy-lists pretty bad (FS shouldn't spend 26 slots on manacards, that's a recipe for suicide in a deck that already spends cards at a frightening pace; Goblins really don't want to MD StP and mono-coloured Goblins have the advantage in the mirror), but those lists have posted some finishes, so I guess we can just overlook that.
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Wiley on 2007-01-09 18:06 MDT Strangely (being the critical type myself) I liked this article because it introduced me to a format that I previously knew very little about. I might be tempted to play it.
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Deejay_archy on 2007-01-09 18:48 MDT Nice article... especially due to the fact that I really didn't had a ideia of the kind of decks played!
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Taoofss on 2007-01-09 19:03 MDT such an expensive format though. If you discount the 9x proxies allow at most major t1 events, legacy decks cost about the same as t1 decks.
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NahHolmes on 2007-01-09 19:07 MDT Goblins:
-White +Green for Grip (or keep White and add Geddon)
-3 Swords, -2Saclands, -1 Mountain
+4 Ports, +1 Sharpshooter, +1 Pyromancer
Thresh:
-4 Mental Note, -1 Daze, -2 Stifle, -2 Windswept Heath
+4 Portent, +1 Mage, +1 Predict, +1 Counterspell, +1 Island, +1 Forest
Solidarity:
-4 AK, -1 Twincast, -1 Words of Wisdom, -1 Brain Freeze
+1 Polluted Delta, +4 Opt, +2 Flash of Insight (OMG!!!)
Wipe Away in the side def., also no Words in Solidarity ever, sooooo bad.
F Stompy:
-4 Mox Diamond, -2 Mishra's, -2 Serum Visions, -4 Island
+4 Chrome Mox, +1 Engeneered Explosives, +2 Seat of Synod, +2 Misdirection, +3 Fact or Fiction
Something like that... don't forget to pack your 1+ lucksac
Edit -1 Something, +1 Crypt in MD
UWB Fish
- Something
+ Jitte
I don't really mess with this deck. Is that any better?
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sui_slush on 2007-01-09 19:32 MDT Iggy pop is def. a top deck.
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dre4m on 2007-01-09 19:37 MDT I'm sorry, but I had to stop reading after the Disenchant in the Goblins sideboard talked about Moat and Survival, but didn't mention Engineered Plague.
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tato- on 2007-01-09 19:44 MDT very nice article, I dont like legacy much but I will try...gj georgjorge
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Esibnitsud on 2007-01-09 20:02 MDT oath of druids
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Eldariel on 2007-01-09 20:24 MDT Holmes: Also, -X, +2-3 Tin Street Hooligan for the mirror tech and to beat Jittes. On another note, I totally missed that the deck didn't have Ports. If anyone ever anywhere wants to play any Goblins-deck, always pack 4 Ports and 4 Wastelands. They're the reason the deck wins against 'bad' match-ups.
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Precinct on 2007-01-09 20:40 MDT lol
your power cards have life from the loam before meddling mage??? or lackey??? or stp???...those 3 are better than the 3 you just listed
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Precinct on 2007-01-09 20:50 MDT oh and no mention to 43 land deck??? which has game vs every one of those decks... cept soliditary
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yavin1 on 2007-01-09 21:54 MDT its a very good article, but there is a lot to cover and the decklists could be better, but i enjoyed reading it. good job
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Erebus- on 2007-01-09 22:53 MDT by Precinct on 2007-01-09 19:50 PST
oh and no mention to 43 land deck??? which has game vs every one of those decks... cept soliditary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
43land.dec beats Solidarity after side.
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Erebus- on 2007-01-09 22:54 MDT by Taoofss on 2007-01-09 18:03 PST
such an expensive format though. If you discount the 9x proxies allow at most major t1 events, legacy decks cost about the same as t1 decks.
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And no, Legacy is no where near the price of Vintage. Average Vintage deck is $4,000 and Legacy is about 500 I'd say. And btw no proxies are allowed.
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NahHolmes on 2007-01-09 23:18 MDT 43Lands beats Solidarity after side?!?!?! LOL
I don't care if your side is 4x Orim's Chant, 4x Blessing, 3x Rule of Law, 4x Chalice, 43Lands will never break 50% against Solidarity, never. First for every "answer" you run Solidarity has multiple ways out. Gaea's Blessing 9 times out of 10 is laughable. I love when people think bringing in a set of Chalices, 2 Chants, and a couple Blessings is going to turn a 90+% matchup for me into a winning position for them. To tell you the aweful truth this board may break terrible players but is quite a joke defense to anyone who knows how to play Solidarity. To tell it honest I would almost just ignore combo instead of wasting 4 SB slots on it (Chants+Blessings) and put something useful like Needles to name Crypt or Crypt itself in instead. Breaking a Crypt to prevent my massive flashback of FoInsight or Needle naming a sacland and hoping for the best would do more damage then the average Blessing as well as not sucking vs. everything else. Please respond as I would love to explain further how wrong you are.
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Eldariel on 2007-01-09 23:36 MDT Faerie Stompy tends to rape 43 Lands too. Chalice at 2 hurts, but most importantly, big creatures, equipment, basics and Needle on Maze of Ith=G.G Tormod's Crypt and Winter Orb post-SB just make life miserable for the 43 Lands-player (and no, I wouldn't shy out from Chalice at 2 even if I had Winter Orb available).
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warwizard87 on 2007-01-10 00:01 MDT I'm sorry, but I had to stop reading after the Disenchant in the Goblins sideboard talked about Moat and Survival, but didn't mention Engineered Plague.
Funny thing is how often goblins can actuly fight through the first plauge with out disinchant ;) its 2 when gobos has the problem
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NahHolmes on 2007-01-10 00:12 MDT Yeah King is usually better vs. a single plague then Disenchant. Also Eldariel do you still run the single Crypt in MD to fetch, I always found that quite annoying to play against.
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georgjorge on 2007-01-10 00:50 MDT First, thanks for all the positive feedback ! Legacy trials FTW...
Regarding the critique that important decks are missing, I am aware that there are other good decks like Iggy or Homebrew, but since this was meant to be an introduction, I thought it better not to overload the article.
Regarding the decklists:
Swords MD in Goblins is debatable, but it is huge against Threshold and is nearly the best card versus Faerie Stompy, where Bolt isn't that good. That's why I find white to be better than green...but I agree that the Ports shouldn't have been left out.
The Faerie stompy list is what I've been playing extensively myself, and the 26 mana is necessary in my opinion. However, it should be Chrome Mox instead of Diamond. Explosives isn't good enough though for 1, and Serum Visions is good since you want to have an explosive second turn more than you want to play the mid-game with Fact.
The Knowledges in Solidarity are probably better as Opts, Twincast is pretty good however. Flash seems good in the maindeck, but is bad to dig for lands before going off, and I've had problems with it costing too much mid-combo, so I put Words instead. Oh, and there IS a wishboard for Solidarity listed below the deck...
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Roar on 2007-01-10 03:18 MDT by Esibnitsud on 2007-01-10 04:02 CET
oath of druids
is banned in legacy :)
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Eldariel on 2007-01-10 05:11 MDT Holmes: I've actually never run an MD Tormod's Crypt, save for like 3 minis. My MD artifact of choice is a Pithing Needle, due to the general utility that artifact provides (most of the more challenging MUs (fast, removal-heavy aggro-decks and land denial tempo-decks) are quite immune to Tormod's Crypt and against Thres, I usually can just go get Chalice anyways). When I ran Tormod's Crypt, I constantly found myself wishing it was something useful when playing against decks like Goblins, UWb Fish and such.
georg: 26 mana sources with Mox Diamonds=22 mana sources with Chrome Mox, which is why I find it to be a royal waste of space. I'm personally running 22-23 mana sources with Chrome Moxes, which is plenty. Yes, being able to blow up Explosives for 2 is nice and all, but not worth sacrificing an entire 4-of slot for. If you really want to go around blowing Explosives up for 2, you should add some duals to the manabase. As for Serum Visions, first of all, Brainstorm is 10000 times better, and second, you need a [i]really[/i] good reason to run 1-CC cards in a deck that plays a turn 1 Chalice in about 40% of the games and digging 3 isn't that reason. Yes, the draw-slot is a bit sketchy, but having a cantrip answers nothing. If you really want a cantrip, play Mishra's Bauble or something that at least has synergy with Trinket Mage when you need no artis, just answers.
Regarding Goblins, Threshold is a good MU anyways, and what helps more than StP is having artifact removal to kill any possible Pithing Needles they may be hatching. Also, against Faerie Stompy, your first and foremost concern is them getting an active Jitte or Sword, so Rg Goblins with 3-4 Tin Street Hooligans has far stronger FS and Threshold-MU than Rw with StP main. Also, Rg Goblins with Tin Street has the mirror advantage (every time I've played Goblins-mirror, the player with an active Vial has won, so the key to winning it is making sure you destroy opponent's Vial, and protect yours (Tinkerer dies easily, Tin Street has already done his damage by the time you can kill him)).
And Flash just plain wins in Solidarity, but as it doesn't dig pre-combo, you only play it as a 2-of. It definitely belongs to the main though, once you get it off, you just win as you can stack the library, and it gives you additional outs in a Brain Freeze-hand that's short on Storm to actually kill the opponent. Twincast is a solid alternative, but the numbers are meta-dependant. As for Words of Wisdom, running excessive killcards in the main isn't really a good plan especially when there's such a broken card as Flash of Insight available to replace it (once you have Flash in grave+about half your library (generally through Brain Freezing self), you can Flash to stack your library and when you have a stacked library, you just aren't going to lose).
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The_Viper on 2007-01-10 06:20 MDT I want a legacy master, It would be great.
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georgjorge on 2007-01-10 07:21 MDT http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacy is the Legacy banned list, for those interested.
@Eldariel: you have good arguments concerning Goblins and Solidarity, but as for Faerie Stompy, Serum Visions is better than Brainstorm without fetchlands (and I already take enough damage as is), and is there to be played on the first turn to maximize the possibility of turn 2 flyer, turn 3 flyer / equipment. you only need it on turn one, as later on you mostly have good outlets for your mana anyway. chalice works against it, but you can still pitch it to FoW or Chrome Mox.
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Eldariel on 2007-01-10 08:31 MDT If you were to add Brainstorms, Fetchlands would be a no-brainer. But as I said, Mishra's Bauble should do about the same without reading 'screw you, I'm countered by Chalice at 1', and combined with fetchlands, you even get an Opt out of it. Yes, you're taking pain, but the 1 life isn't going to make a difference.
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Meatwarz on 2007-01-10 10:33 MDT Hmm...Didn't get anything usefull for myself, but this can be helpful for someone starting playing Legacy..But still not enought deck mentioned for beginner (I mean just for info: Life from the loam decks, Stax, Landstill, Iggy Pop, BW Deadguy..).
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NahHolmes on 2007-01-10 10:45 MDT OK george, I can tell you aren't a wiz with Solidarity and I can't blame you it's probobaly the most skill intensive deck in Legacy. Anyways AK is just bad, 2cc spells are at a premium as job #1 is to sculpt a hand you can win with ASAP, Opt does this about 100 times better then AK as it quickens your digs for land or skips a land if you don't need it, it has possible synergy with Brainstorm and is just as good turn 1 as it is in the middle of the combo. AK doesn't come online until turn 2, the first one is only half as good as Opt but costs twice as much and the first one cast is the most important, the second one is anywhere from slightly better to equal with Opt depending on if you are going off, digging for lands, and how many lands/spells you are working with. Even the 4th one cast is only digging as many cards as the first Impulse and by the time you have 3 AKs in the GY you should be winning anyways and could probobaly have flashbacked FoInsight and just stacked your deck anyways FTW. Not to mention AK has anti-synergy with FoInsight which is possibly one of the most important spells in your deck as it digs deepest early-mid combo when digging becomes super important. FoInsight is not for digging for lands short of last resort, that is what Opt, Brainstorm, and Impulse in a pinch are there for, though I would gladly play FoInsight x=1 eot turn 3 if I plan on going off turn 4 just to GY it (or even x=0 for that matter).
Best case with AK before combo is turn 2, draw a card, turn 3 draw 2 cards, and you should always plan to be ready to go off turn 4 just incase. Meanwhile you dug 3 cards deep while 2x Opt could have dug 4 cards deep if needed and leaves you open to do things like T1: Opt, T2:Remand, T3:Opt, Impulse for example.
If you were going to put AK in I would suggest Intuition in the side but why add jank tech to an otherwise solid deck? Building/Playing Solidarity it like doing statistics to sculpt the best hand, then use that hand to sculpt your deck, then win at just the right time.
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sgtpepper87 on 2007-01-10 13:31 MDT this was one of the best articles i read on here, really good work!
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Shivan1 on 2007-01-10 20:30 MDT Yes while the legacy pros might be up in arms, I found it a good read since I knew nothing of the format. Thanks!
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NahHolmes on 2007-01-10 21:01 MDT I'm not a legacy pro or up in arms (well atleast not to georgj, but I guess to the joker who said Lands could ever be favorable over Solidarity I am). It was a good article for beginners which was the point I 'spose. We just came to add a more advanced spin to the general strats and decklists laid out. As far as actual articles go this is the most useful one I've ever seen, 90% are garbage, this one was just slightly out of touch on the lists, but a good overview.
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Erebus- on 2007-01-10 22:53 MDT As far as I know Holmes, Soldiarity's only way out of negating Gaea's Blessing is Stifle or a massive Stroke of Genius.
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georgjorge on 2007-01-11 01:20 MDT Thanks again for all the positive answers, glad to hear it !
@Oedipus: as mentioned in the article, there's also the possibility of responding to the Blessing trigger with another Freeze to empty your library, then play Words or Stroke for one to kill with the trigger still on the stack.
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Wichtelman on 2007-01-11 01:27 MDT if there are 4 blessing in libary how u play around it? response to all 4 triggers? never played solidarity :-/
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Eldariel on 2007-01-11 06:22 MDT As already said many times, there're many ways around Blessings. You usually recycle Brain Freezes with Remands and Cunning Wishes as need be, and Stroke them out when they're low enough (Stroking for 10 cards isn't hard), but occasionally you'll just Stroke them for their library or such. Stifles are rarely even included as they take valuable slots without contributing anything useful.
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NahHolmes on 2007-01-11 09:47 MDT With Gaea's trigger on stack remand the original Brain Freeze and play it again, do this until their library is Strokable then Cunning Wish for Stroke and win. When people play 4 it's just as easy to play around, especially if you know. If you get your storm count up first then the first Brain Freeze activates a Blessing let it trigger and hopefully the remaining Freeze copies will dig deeper, also awesome is catching 2 Blessings with a single Freeze copy. With 4 they usually either draw 1-2 or you end up getting 2 in a single Freeze. Of course you could also hit them with a non lethal Stroke and hope they scoop a couple Blessings then flashback FoInsight and Wish for it again after some Freezes. That last one is kinda stupid but it just goes to show that you really have unlimited possibilities and its not that hard to get around.
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VileHorror on 2007-01-14 10:25 MDT hey, georgjorge, it's Isamaru from MTGS. I'm glad you wrote this so that we can get some of the Standard/Extended players to wake up and smell the coffee. It's sort of disguisting that Wizards won't feel the need to support Legacy otherwise, so the more people that realize Legacy is (what I think is) the best format there is, the better.
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TylerTMK on 2007-01-17 09:44 MDT Legacy does seem like an awesome format, probably better than t2 and ext. I think the reason Wizards doesn't suppor it as much is because not many players have the cards to play in legacy...
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Laplie on 2007-01-18 12:08 MDT more legacy minis please
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NahHolmes on 2007-01-18 13:51 MDT TylerTMK- Legacy players don't buy as many new cards = less money for WoTC = less support.
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VileHorror on 2007-01-18 14:23 MDT Well, Wizards doesn't support it because it doesn't make them money in any way at all, or at least in the way they are thinking. Standard and Extended are money MACHINES... If they would print non-throwback cards (thereby good for Legacy since Legacy doesn't already have copies of the cards) then Legacy would grow, meaning more players would play it - which is not a bad thing money-wise for Wizards in the sense that they'd still be bying new cards IF ONLY Wizards would be wize enough to print "NEW" cards.
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georgjorge on 2007-01-19 07:20 MDT Yea, but I think by promising that they would not reprint certain cards from the early editions for the sake of collectors, they have created a situation where those cards will be rising in value forever. If many folks started to play Legacy, the value would go through the roof (as it is already with Dual lands). The solution, of course, would be to print new cards with the same function as, say, Dual lands but new names...but this would EXTREMELY increase the power level of Type 2 and Extended for the next seasons.
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IberianWolf on 2007-01-25 15:06 MDT you mean, like the ravnica dual lands? lol.
EDIT: though solidarity is my legacy choice of play, I must say that sudden shock can bring it all down (assuming the solidarity dude is at 2 life). same for extirpate (turn one duress or something, then extirpate, assuming you got a brain freeze or stroke of genius or something. it isn't that hard... they can get it back with the wish, though. discard the wish and then extirpate it? a lot of decisions can be made here). also, angel's grace. I do think it applies to milling too.
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NahHolmes on 2007-01-26 11:22 MDT To the guy above please note...
1: Noone plays Sudden Shock in a format where Lightning Bolt is legal.
2: This whole conversation up until your post was before Extripate was spoiled. Extripate is going to be a problem for many decks (Solidarity included) but it most likely won't be maindeck and Brainfreeze would probably be the last card you'd want to Extripate unless you already got Wish (because by the time Storm is up to 15+ it will be easy to wish up a Brainstorm).
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Eldariel on 2007-01-28 08:17 MDT Extirpate will likely be no more of a problem for Solidarity than any other combo-hate card to the date. It's split second, but the deck is redundant enough that no single card Extirpated will be enough to beat it.
And why would Solidarity wait until he's at 2 life and opponent has untapped to go off against a deck with burn? I mean, that opens him up to any number of barrages of instant-speed burn (like Magma Jet-Lightning Bolt-Fireblast). Heck, I've killed careless Solidarity-players with Psionic Blast, since they waited a turn too long. I've never seen a good pilot to wait so long that he's in the burn-range though. The only thing Extirpate requires is that you know it's there, so you can play around it.
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NahHolmes on 2007-01-28 09:12 MDT IDK...
Me: In response to your (insert name of gamebreaking spell) High Tide.
Them: Ok
Me: Reset.
Them: Ok
Me: Meditate
Them: In response Extripate Reset.
Me: Ouch...
Or of course the dreaded...
Me: End of turn Flash of Insight for one, my turn draw, play land, pass.
Them: EOT Extripate - Flash of Insight.
Me: Balls!
Unlike other problematic cards you can't answer it with Force of Will or bounce. So I deem it slightly worse for us then all other hate so far, but still not crippling on its own...
Them: Ok turn 1 Dark Ritual, Duress, Hmmm Cunning Wish, Extripate.
Me: *Cry, Cry*
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Eldariel on 2007-01-28 22:38 MDT But, if you have for example 2 Resets in hand, you can stack them both without giving him the priority to Extirpate anything. And even if you lose Resets, there're always the Wishes and the Turnabouts. It hurts Flash, I'll grant you that.
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neburr on 2007-01-31 12:27 MDT for me, the best agro, goblin vial, and the best combo solidarity , so now there are 1 dek , reanimate7 , is very very good, what do you know?
